[WorldMaker]

> Some things I have read suggest the civil war didn't start per se over slavery.

What you've read seems to include a lot of Lost Cause lies. Slavery is clearly mentioned in most of the Ordinance of Secession [1] as a fundamental cause, including and especially the first one ratified (by South Carolina [2]).

The decision of the Union to emancipate slaves did come later in the war, but it was what most of the Ordinance of Secession already feared was a likely outcome prior to the war even starting and became a bit of a self-fulfilled prophecy.

You don't have to take my word for it, but it is incredibly well documented by the Southern states themselves how much the Southern states seceded primarily because of slavery. Most of the other "takes" on the war are lies after the fact trying to bury the facts. It's not an argument of opinions, it's a fight between known historic facts versus centuries of later propaganda and subterfuge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_of_Secession

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina_Declaration_of_...

[DoreenMichele]

What you are saying doesn't actually disagree with anything I've said though somehow you want to say that while we both agree the war started because the South wished to secede and the North didn't decide to set a goal of emancipation until later, somehow I'm wrong and you are right.

Slavery being listed as a fundamental reason for secession and their fear that the North would at some point interfere with their self determination in that regard doesn't actually contradict anything I've said.

I'm not pro slavery, but if you believe this is an internal matter and other forces are trying to interfere, it's not unreasonable to conclude that they are being aggressive towards you and you have no choice but to defend yourself.

Them being morally in the wrong on the detail of slavery doesn't mean they were just making stuff up about the North being "aggressive" and trying to interfere.

Deciding to secede due to such interference as a matter of self determination means self determination was per se the issue, not slavery.

[russellbeattie]

You, or the people you are referring to, are purposefully missing a key part of the "self determination" argument: Democracy.

The Southern states had signed a contract - the Constitution - in which they promised to abide by the democratic process. In exchange for giving up some of their sovereignty to a federal government and respecting democratic rule, they reaped the economic benefits and security of being a part of a larger unified country for almost 100 years.

By the 1850s, the majority of the country (as well as the rest of the world) were opposed to slavery. For good or bad, in a democracy, majority rules. The South decided they didn't like that they were in the minority on this issue (and no other) and decided to unilaterally break their contract with the rest of the states as a result. This was and is unacceptable - can you imagine what would happen to a democracy if any time a group of people lost an election or were in the minority on an issue, they called for a revolt, civil war or "national divorce?"

It would have been perfectly fine if there was a democratic decision to let the South leave as voted on by all the states, but that's not what happened. Thus the "self determination" or "northern aggression" argument holds no water. The southern states, after agreeing to be part of a democracy, had no right to leave in an undemocratic manner because simply they didn't like being in the minority. By not allowing secession, the Union wasn't being aggressive, it was just holding the South to their contract and preserving the fundamental basis of democracy. Getting rid of slavery was a bonus.

[DoreenMichele]

The initial founding of the US created an extremely weak federal government. The states were supposed to be independent nations with sovereignty within their own borders and an agreement to cooperate in raising an army collectively for purposes of defense.

The exact form of organization initially chosen had a history of failing and it gave the federal government no means to fund an army, therefore no meaningful means to raise an army. So that was soon abandoned and the agreement was updated.

No, it's not crazy talk for the Southern states to believe they had self determination that the Northern states had no right to interfere with. That was the original arrangement agreed upon by the various states -- state typically meaning independent nation and not "some layer of organization above municipal and county but below nation."

Over time, our conceptualization of the organization of the US has changed. Originally, the states were conceived of as separate nations allied for one purpose: The ability to adequately defend themselves to preserve their independence.

[russellbeattie]

> That was the original arrangement...

Besides the fact that this would only apply to 4 of the 11 confederate states, they were all part of the country as the relationship between state and federal government changed, or had agreed to join it as it was.

In fact most of the first 15 presidents were from the South. Virginia specifically had the most presidents and the largest representation in the House because of the 3/5ths compromise, as well as Southerners controlling the Supreme Court (remember Frederick Douglas) and half the Senate. The South was fine with the federal system until they were going to lose slavery. If they had the votes, they would have been quite happy to force the North to accept slavery (and they tried). When they were outvoted, instead of respecting the democracy that they helped create, the South rebelled to preserve slavery. Any other version is a distortion.

None of this of course will affect southerners opinions and alternative facts, I'm sure.

[selecsosi]

Thank you for doing the often uncomfortable act of reminding people of the historical facts and record vs. revisionist subjectivists. There is plenty of historical record and primary sources to back your line of discussion here.

You're addressing the shame and internal conflict of someone who "believes" they are a "good" person, but have met reasonable evidence to show otherwise, and instead of address the conflict, they would prefer to retreat into denial (not unlike Southern Revisionists!)

[dang]

Please don't cross into personal attack. The tiny little snippets of text that are HN comments aren't nearly enough to evaluate what kind of person someone is—not by a long shot.

Meanwhile the online callout/shaming culture makes a habit of putting the nastiest spin on what other people post. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Note this one:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

[DoreenMichele]

You're addressing the shame and internal conflict of someone who "believes" they are a "good" person, but have met reasonable evidence to show otherwise, and instead of address the conflict, they would prefer to retreat into denial (not unlike Southern Revisionists!)

This is an unwarranted and rather ugly personal attack. I have neither shame nor internal conflict on this topic. My ancestors were not slave owners.

I was born and raised in the South, but my father and mother were both from elsewhere.

I didn't bother to reply to the comment you are praising because it also contains ugly personal attacks, which are in violation of HN guidelines and responding to such is not typically a good means to foster the kinds of discussion HN is intended for.

I stand by my original comment that my understanding is that Grant's compassion in how he handled terms of surrender is likely a large part of why the US has only had one civil war.

I regret replying to the seemingly angry response someone left about broader topics than just Grant. I'm taken aback at how ugly the replies are here. It's not what I have come to expect on HN even though I post as openly female and that's got a long history of being stupid levels of drama at times.

[WorldMaker]

> Them being morally in the wrong on the detail of slavery doesn't mean they were just making stuff up about the North being "aggressive" and trying to interfere.

This is where I believe you have cause-and-effect entirely backwards (and for good reason): the Lost Cause factions of the South made up all the stuff about the North being "aggressive" after the War, when at every stage of the war it was the seceding states doing all the "aggression".

They were unhappy with the results of the Lincoln-Douglas debates and the election results of President Lincoln. That wasn't "aggression" in any way, shape, or form, that was democracy in action.

They were unhappy with what they saw of the federal government failing to enforce the "Fugitive Slave Acts". "Not policing" isn't an "aggressive" action, it's a lack of action or possibly a failure of action. It might be considered "passive aggression", but even most school children understand the different between passive-aggression and real "aggression".

The act of emancipation itself wasn't even properly on the table in the North which saw little stake in it either way prior to the Civil War. Lincoln was explicitly anti-emancipation in the Lincoln-Douglas debates and the Emancipation Proclamation only happened after severe casualties and a lot of Southern Aggression (which certainly was not passive-aggression in any way, but the actual aggression of war) during the Civil War and it was clear no compromise was likely to be made by the South.

Here's the deal, I grew up in a border zone of Lost Cause rhetoric and I know exactly how common that idea was made, and how much sympathy those lies have tried to engender for the Southern states. I know how critically deep it is tied into those states' ideas of pride and accomplishment and works to keep them from feeling terrible and guilty all the time in modern society. Wishing to believe the North was the "true" aggressor in the Civil War makes all the moral wrongs of being pro-slavery seem like "lesser crimes" than if those states actually look in the mirror of documented facts and properly recognized that they aggressively started a war for pro-slavery. I sympathize with those that don't want to feel in modern society like they live in a state that was so aggressively pro-slavery to start a war on it. I understand how much it does feel better to believe all the propaganda lies of the Lost Cause narrative. I know that's a large part of why those lies exist.

I don't think you are wrong. I think you are, at worst, misguided. I'm not expecting to convince you that I'm right. I don't expect you trust me at all as a guide towards historic facts, because it definitely sounds like you've made up your mind and don't care to change it. I'm pointing out facts for other kids like me in border zones and other weird pockets of Lost Cause propaganda that don't yet know what to believe because they keep hearing both sides without enough force to show that one side always lies and the other side tells truths so painful people prefer the lies. Both sides aren't equal and it isn't just "opinion versus opinion", and more kids need to know that.

[DoreenMichele]

My ex husband and I once argued for three days before realizing we weren't even talking about the same thing. '

Your framing of this and mine are just different. Me understanding why some people in the South see it a certain way is absolutely not bound up with a lot of the stuff you are lumping it in with.