[JumpCrisscross]

> it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla

Capability, not feature. I know that isn’t how it’s marketed. But Elon isn’t claiming he has Level 5 right now. Most FSD buyers seem aware they’re paying into a research effort.

Fraud requires knowledge and intent. You’re making a good case for a class action lawsuit, i.e. civil action. Not for putting someone in jail.

[InitialLastName]

Capability implies that the car can do the thing (software included). Until the car can do it, it's all "hypothetical capability".

Selling a "capability" that won't get delivered within the expected lifetime of the car is just marketing garbage.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Capability implies that the car can do the thing (software included)

It’s made clear that isn’t the definition of capability they’re using [1].

I am not a fan of the Autopilot branding. But I struggle to see how someone buys FSD capability, realises their mistake on delivery and is then unable to get restitution through either a return or a resale.

[1] "the facility or potential for an indicated use or deployment," emphasis on "potential" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capability

[ahahahahah]

Sure. In the same way that I have Olympic "capability".

[JumpCrisscross]

> the same way that I have Olympic "capability"

You may. Not everyone does. That doesn’t mean everyone capable of Olympic greatness achieves it.

[ljw1001]

It’s a “full” capability they’re incapable of delivering. It’s really hard to see how your distinction has any meaning.

[MBCook]

I have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution.

It will require better processors, better cameras, LiDAR, more RAM, something.

[JumpCrisscross]

> have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution

Me either! But that’s not fraud. It’s delusion. We don’t criminalise it because the difference between genius and crazy is often only apparent ex post facto.

[yellow_postit]

Is the key difference that no one can prove the current hardware will be unable to reach a level 5 solution?

Taken to the (more) absurd we wouldn’t have this issue if the claim was the cars could fly, be boats, or time travel. People wouldn’t buy the “capability” either.

This is a fascinating murky area and seems there’s no market solution beyond caveat emptor

[JumpCrisscross]

> a fascinating murky area and seems there’s no market solution beyond caveat emptor

I think so. It's interesting to discuss and think about, because the grey area is incredibly complex. (Not that we get too far into it on these kinds of forums.)

[MBCook]

Selling a product that does X that neither currently does X nor can in the future do X seems like fraud to me.

[JumpCrisscross]

> nor can in the future do X

We don’t know this. That’s the point.

[pclmulqdq]

Generally, when you don't know that a product definitely can do something, you don't sell it saying that it has the "capability" to do it. That's fraud.

[JumpCrisscross]

> when you don't know that a product definitely can do something, you don't sell it saying that it has the "capability" to do it. That's fraud.

Capability is defined as "the facility or potential for an indicated use or deployment" [1]. There are other definitions. But selling capability based on future potential is not fraudulent, unless you say the capability is present.

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capability emphasis mine

[stefan_]

I don't understand, up top you said it's just the "capability". So if it isn't even that, what's left?

Don't they already have a new, more powerful HW design for 2023 that is incompatible with the fittings for the old one?

[JohnFen]

I don't see any reason to think that Musk is either genius or crazy.

[vel0city]

In 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020.

[JumpCrisscross]

> 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020

No evidence these forecasts were made in bad faith. Delusion isn’t criminal. It’s mis-selling in the here and now, in absolute terms, in a way that causes damage, that is problematic.

[vel0city]

He made the statement it made no financial sense to buy any other car than a Tesla because of the certainty of robo taxi functionality arriving in 2020. He sold people on the promise that their car would be revenue generating in 2020.

Everyone who bought a Tesla with FSD since 2019 should sue Elon for lost revenues from failing to deliver robo taxi functionality over three years late (and counting!) than originally stated.

[simonh]

When you sell a capability you are making a commitment. The fact that you deluded yourself about it does not get you off the hook. You are still responsible for your claims. Or should be.

[JumpCrisscross]

> when you sell a capability you are making a commitment

Sure. And if you sold the promise of future capability with no intent on delivering it, that's fraud. But if you try, it isn't. And if you fail, your customers should have a claim on you. But I don't think it should be a crime.

[JohnFen]

I don't think Musk deserves the benefit of the doubt. His history of just lying about this sort of stuff (outside of Tesla-related claims) is too long and rich for that.

[JumpCrisscross]

> don't think Musk deserves the benefit of the doubt

Neither do I. But that's a civil matter. Criminal conviction doesn't turn on the release of the benefit of doubt.

[pclmulqdq]

I'm sure there is a negligence or recklessness standard that an overzealous prosecutor can apply here. Being willfully stupid about your own company and the products they produce in order to repeatedly get away with delusional over-promising could be construed that way, as could creating a culture that suppresses internal doubt about your company's capabilities.

[bluescarni]

> Most FSD buyers seem aware they’re paying into a research effort.

Shades of Star Citizen right there.

[stametseater]

"The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons."

[gnu8]

Is level 5 where you call a rich person black car service?

[dcanelhas]

Level 5, as defined by the SAE, is a fully self driving system that will never ask you to take control and operates under all possible conditions.

https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/assets/cm/content/blog/...