[neilv]

I kinda like this analogy, though the idea of street fighting is pretty unsavory in real life. Whereas Martial Artist in the article's analogy is like suburban children's Karate classes leading to later study for organized sports competitions and exhibitions. (BTW, IIUC, there are other kinds of study of martial arts, including people who focus on internal development separate from external accomplishments.)

Even though it's unsavory, I did use a "scrappy street kid fighter" analogy on HN a couple months ago, criticizing some academic attempt to make declarations about software engineering. Then spun that into one of my favorite topics, which is startups and other smaller companies playing house self-destructively, by cargo-culting behaviors of insulated massive megacorps. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34753570

Instead, we need to lean more towards scrappy street-smarts than we have been during much of "tech". (We also need to always learn from our predecessors and conteporaries, but to be smart about it, not cargo-cult, so I'm focusing on the smart part first.)

[ajb]

I don't know, I feel like a lot of these laudatory adjectives like "scrappy" and "street smart" are often just ways to excuse product owners, designers and execs making crappy decisions and throwing them over the wall to engineers to sort out. YMMV, of course.

[neilv]

I suspect that a scrappy organization wouldn't have a wall to toss anything over.

If a wall did accidentally appear in a scrappy org, maybe the wall gets knocked over, and the trash collegially tossed back, with an offer to work together on something that will work?

Stereotypical lumbering bureaucracies can appropriate terms all day, and people mimicking them can also mimic their appropriations, and management books can be marketed, all while ignoring the actual useful meaning of the terms.

[ajb]

I think I'm taking about a different failure mode. To have a "wall" you don't need a large organisation, just leadership that has certain blindspots or beliefs that they don't allow to be challenged. (I know I'm being a bit vague, I can't go into the specifics unfortunately).

[neilv]

I might've heard of that kind of situation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35344635

[ajb]

Well, there's that, yes. But I think there can also be an excessive belief in the power of scrappiness and agility, that it can overcome any issue, so no actual consultation or forethought before committing the company is useful. Any pushback being dismissed as "big company thinking"

[neilv]

Definitely agreed. Variations on the word "agile" are too loaded and religious now, but I was hoping I could define "scrappy" how I want to, which at times includes shrewd planning. :)

[Swizec]

My favorite part of boxing is that it’s a very honest martial art. If you punch the other person more than they punch you, you win. Even the most technical coach will tell you that all the technique and philosophy we train is just there to improve your chances.

When you’re in the ring, forget the theory, do what works (within the rules). If your instinct says to throw a weird punch at a weird time, do it. You probably saw an opening.

I also like that boxing is full contact. No amount of katas or whatever will teach you as much about yourself as getting actually punched in the face will.

Similar to how no amount of analysis can beat actually shipping software and seeing what customers say.

[neilv]

Hence the sayings "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face" and "The enemy gets a vote". There's a lot of truth to this.

I suppose we have to be careful not to rationalize mindless flailing, when we should be keeping our heads and mixing levels of intuition and thinking appropriate to the occasion. (Rather than throw random things at a customer each sprint, and purely react, we can be smarter about what we throw. Also, a one-week sprint isn't about acting in the moment of a hundredth of a second.)

[Swizec]

> not to rationalize mindless flailing, when we should be keeping our heads and mixing levels of intuition and thinking appropriate to the occasion

This is true. When two experienced boxers (even ones who never compete) face off, it’s like a chess match. Both thinking five steps ahead and it’s as beautiful to watch as it is fun to experience.

But never underestimate the beginner. They will hurt you in the first 30 seconds because they’re scared and don’t realize their own strength. Then after 30 seconds they’re out of steam and you can do your thing … if your head’s still on.