[phpisthebest]

>>Especially ironic is that the (frankly quite few) benefits and rights that workers have in the States are thanks to unions.

This is very slanted view of how labor developed in the US to simply give unions 100% of the credit, it is very revisionist history and not completely factual.

Unions can claim some credit, but to say they are solely responsible for "benefits and rights that workers have" is false.

Hell most "benefits" today (health insurance, vacation time, etc) are more directly attributive to wage price controls during WWII than they are to unions. as employers had to get creative with compensation to attract workers as they could not simply raise raw wages

[illiarian]

> Hell most "benefits" today (health insurance, vacation time, etc) are more directly attributive to wage price controls during WWII than they are to unions.

I'd say the system of vacations and health insurance in the US is so shitty precisely because unions were gutted after WWII.

[phpisthebest]

then you have no understanding of what most workers actually prefer. Not what they claim on surveys but what they actually vote for both in unions and via the market place of jobs.

Workers routinely reveal their preference for higher wages over more time off. Given the option both in unions and in non-unions most workers will trade away increases in vacation time for high wage increases or starting wages.

One of the most unpopular changes my employer ever did was taking away the ability to Cash out vacation time. Many workers preferred just to cash out that time instead of taking it off.

[illiarian]

> then you have no understanding of what most workers actually prefer.

Have you asked those workers? Do those workers even know that anything other than the status quo exists (e.g. in other countries)?

> Given the option both in unions and in non-unions most workers will trade away increases in vacation time for high wage increases or starting wages.

Again, that is a very American thing, too. Of course you'd take increased wages instead of anything just because there are little to no saftey net anywhere to guarantee that your vacation time won't end up in a horrible unrecoverable disaster of some sort.

[phpisthebest]

>>Have you asked those workers?

you clearly did not understand my statement. I would specifically not get the accurate results by "asking the workers" as my claim is about revealed preferences, not stated preferences [1]. There are alots of things people claim to value when you ask them, but releval they really dont when to enter the marketplace. For example "Made in America".. people often claim they would happily pay considerable amounts more for a product if ti was "made in America" but then when presented with options they mostly choose the cheaper product regardless of where it is made revealing they do not place that much value in the nation of origin.

Similarly people often claim they want more time off, however their reveled preference by looking at their actions tell a much different story.

>Again, that is a very American thing, too

yes, it is and given we are talking about an American Company, American Unions, and American Retail stores I think talking about American work culture is relevant. People from Europe have never, and likely will never understand it, and people from American have never and will never understand Europe work culture. Personally though I am tried of Europeans being arrogant enough to claim their way is the correct, proper and only way, and that Americans are all being taken advantage of, abused, etc because we do not get 150 days off a year and do not allow our government to control our health........

>>Of course you'd take increased wages instead of anything just because there are little to no saftey net anywhere to guarantee that your vacation time won't end up in a horrible unrecoverable disaster of some sort.

While that may be true for some people, allow me to give my privileged position as an example. I created my own Safety net. I am more or less debt free, I own my home, I have enough in liquid assets to cover my expenses for a year, I have enough in less than liquid assets to cover me for a few years... I still will take increases in pay over more time off, I am just not interested in time off. I probably will continue to work well past the time I am able to financially retire.. I am not unique in America

As to more general safety nets... It is untrue that America lacks any safety nets for people. One of the most often cited negative about America by Europeans is actually one of those safety nets. Bankruptcy, which contrary to both international and domestic stigma is does not leave one destitute, homeless or anything of the sort and has LOTS of protections for people built into the system.

Then there are TON of government programs for Poor people.

In reality is the working lower middle class that have it the worst, people above the 25th percentile of income, and below the 75th percentile of income. Those are the struggling Americans.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/revealed-preference.asp

[illiarian]

> Personally though I am tried of Europeans being arrogant enough to claim their way is the correct, proper and only way, and that Americans are all being taken advantage of, abused, etc because we do not get 150 days off a year and do not allow our government to control our health........

Ah. The American arrogance shines through. "Government controlling health" and "these lazy Europeans with their 150 days of vacation".

> allow me to give my privileged position as an example. I created my own Safety net.

So, double arrogance.

> It is untrue that America lacks any safety nets for people. One of the most often cited negative about America by Europeans is actually one of those safety nets. Bankruptcy

This is not a safety net. It's the last resort. And yes, Europe has laws around bankruptcy, too.

> Then there are TON of government programs for Poor people.

I don't want to become poor before safety nets kick in. I don't want to be beholden to my employer for my medical insurance. I don't want to have only 10-14 days on average to spend time with my family or with my kids. Etc.

Oh, sorry, that's my European arrogance talking.

> In reality is the working lower middle class that have it the worst, people above the 25th percentile of income, and below the 75th percentile of income.

According to various models, it's anywhere from 30% to 45% of people, with actual numbers probably being worse: https://www.hamiltonproject.org/assets/legacy/files/download...

[phpisthebest]

>>Ah. The American arrogance shines through. "Government controlling health" and "these lazy Europeans with their 150 days of vacation".

Factual statements are not arrogance.

>>This is not a safety net. It's the last resort.

My point is it should not be considered the "last resort", in fact I think people wait far far far too long to file for bankruptcy.

>>Europe has laws around bankruptcy

While true, The US is normally cited as creator of personal bankruptcy law, and it used as the benchmark. Changes in the laws in the EU has expanded personal bankruptcy but in many parts of the EU the bankruptcy laws are not as favorable to personal debtors than in the US.

>>I don't want to become poor before safety nets kick in.

Then it is no longer a safety net... It is just a universal income scheme or outright socialism.

>>I don't want to be beholden to my employer for my medical insurance.

Nor do I, which is why I support deregulation of the industry, returning to free market principles, and allowing tax exemptions for personally acquired plans instead of only when it is part of an employer plan (and a range of other reforms) instead of just believing the government should provide....

>I don't want to have only 10-14 days on average to spend time with my family or with my kids. Etc.

Great, negotiate that with your employer. People that do not have those same priorities should also be free to negotiate what they want which may include less time off. That is what a free society allows for. What you want however is to mandate your preference, believing that is what is best for "everyone"

>According to various models, it's anywhere from 30% to 45% of people, with actual numbers probably being worse

One of the reasons for that is the "safety net" system which largely punishes people for their success. If the poor attempt to climb out of poverty that system takes away benefits faster then the income is replacing those benefits, literally paying people to stay poor.

A better system then this network of misaligned "safety net" programs where the government is providing services or payments to fix specific perceived problems (housing, food, etc) would be a more generalized graduated negative income tax system that phases out as the person makes increasing income. This would have to replace all "safety net" programs, and make people individually responsible which is a negative concept in the modern world.