[parker_mountain]

Your LG C2 is a dumb tv - if you dont connect it to the internet. You can even buy a $10 IR remote control on amazon and use that to switch inputs. Or, in my experience, all of my external devices support HDMI CEC and auto switch when i use them.

[kjsthree]

This is essentially what I've done. The TV has never been connected to the Internet and my Apple TV drives everything. I would still have payed 2x to support a good dumb TV project and would love to do so in the future.

[BizarroLand]

I made the mistake of connecting my vizio to the internet after owning it for years.

It was great for two days and then it downloaded an update that absolutely wrecked the interface. What was smooth and snappy and good enough for me now moves at a snails pace and the tv is practically unusable even after a factory reset.

Opening the menu takes 2.5 seconds from button push to response on a good day for no reason other than vizio must have decided it was time for me to buy a new tv.

I used to like their brand. Now I'll never buy another one again.

[Koshkin]

But isn't a dumb TV + Apple TV pretty much the same as a smart TV? (I know, you avoid dealing with two "smarts," but still...)

[doctor_eval]

The problem with smart TVs is that you can’t easily disable the offending software if you want to. The software is tightly coupled to the hardware. In some cases it will aggressively search for opportunities to spy on you.

Worst case, Apple jumps the shark… you can just unplug it. You at least get to keep the display.

[kitsunesoba]

The Apple TV’s hardware is wildly more powerful than that bundled in any smart TV. The current ATV 4K is running on the last gen flagship Apple SoC with a big passive heatsink attached while smart TVs use hardware comparable to that of a low-to-midrange Android phone from 2012-2014. Even the first gen ATV 4K from 2017 is several times more powerful than current smart TVs.

That difference in power is felt quite a lot in the user experience.

[Koshkin]

I am not sure if "powerful" matters in this context though. (That is, I expect the chipsets built into TVs to be plenty powerful for their intended purpose.)

[illumin8]

Have you tried the average "smart" TV you find at an Airbnb? I have and let me tell you, it does matter.

We were staying at one just a few days ago that had a cheap Samsung TV. The UI latency was so horribly laggy that simply clicking an arrow on the remote to try to navigate to the next menu would take up to 10 seconds to finally register on screen. It was also variable, meaning some button presses only took 1-2 seconds to respond, but some took 10 seconds, and if you pressed more than once you'd end up with a whole bunch of your delayed button presses registering at once and taking you to a menu option you didn't want.

Sad to say, but state of the art in these Android menu systems is horrible latency, most likely because the UI devs are building in new javascript features that run horribly slow on older ARM processors and they just don't give any F's about the actual user experience or testing...

[matt-attack]

I love your reference to AirBnB. That is precisely when I get to experience what I assume the rest of the world is used to. Firing up a random TV at an AirBnB is simply painful. You're 100% right that CPU power matters. The delay on every menu is painful. The UX is just atrocious compared to my AppleTV. I cringe that people use this for their normal viewing.

[kitsunesoba]

In many cases the SoCs used in TVs are so underpowered that they can’t render menu screens without frame drops, or if they can they lose that ability after a software update or two because there’s so little margin.

[mtrower]

Just how “underpowered” are we taking here? I’m having a really hard time imagining a chip which cannot render a menu in non-fractional fps. An 8088 can do this…

So it still sounds like a software problem to me.

[amlib]

But on the other hand TV SoCs need to process the video signal at 4k 120hz 4:4:4 without dropping a single frame, although most if not all those tasks are most likely done by an ASIC embedded into the SoC. Would a modern but very cut down GPU be able to do this and also at a low enough power draw?

[iscrewyou]

The irk for smart tvs comes from that fact that they show ads and slow down overtime.

With Apple TV, you can nip that in the bud. Yes, Apple TV has its own quirks but it’s nowhere near as hostile as built in “functionality” that these tvs try to provide.

And not say that streaming services have every incentive to keep the Apple TV apps improving compared to the tv app itself.

It’s just an overall better experience.

[meindnoch]

Lol. No.

A TV with Samsung MySmart™ HomeOS Android UltraCrap Edition is not the same as an AppleTV, if you care about things like, I don't know... consistent framerate? No random crashes? Bearable UI latency?

Similarly how Apple CarPlay is not the same as car manufacturers' sorry-ass homegrown infotainment trash software.

[bee_rider]

From a security or absolutist point of view, yeah. From a customer point of view — different companies have different reputations and market positions. We might all disagree about the exact level of faith we have in them, but Apple and Vizio or whoever seem to have different reputations, for whatever that is worth.

[katbyte]

Apple TV has no ads. Many (most?) smart tvs are full of them or tracking software

[eertami]

Why do you think Apple aren't tracking your usage of Apple TV, while assuming other smart devices are?

iPhones are still spying on you, even if you tick the box to disable sharing of device analytics[0][1].

[0]: https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-whe...

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JxvH80Rrcw

[katbyte]

Because they others have been shown to analyze what’s on the screen etc and to date Apple TV has not.

[modderation]

In the event that there is tracking, it seems to be well-built and doesn't interfere with the user experience.

[waboremo]

Depends. A Smart TV is a category of TVs being sold. If you go into bestbuy asking for a Smart TV, you're not going to get a TV + streaming box/stick, just a "Smart TV" (although there is some obvious overlap here since TV makers have partnered with Fire TV and Roku).

But when it comes to general conversation (and this context), yes it's the same. Unless you are actually using a niche setup of local streaming and the Apple TV box is just a nice interface you keep offline - don't know how well that works. For everyone else, they are just avoiding overlapping TV services, as relying on Apple or Google or Amazon is falling into the same traps.

[bombcar]

The Slamsung smart TV I have is fine, but the UI is noticeablely show as shit even with it never connected to anything (just going to settings for example) which is part and parcel of being "smart" I guess.

99% of the problem with Smart TVs is because of the absolute dog shit UI and the relatively bad HDMI CEC setups they have (at least with mine, if HDMI CEC is on, anytime the TV accidentally or intentionally gets into any of the smart parts, it tells the receiver to go to TV mode, and getting it back to one of the HDMI inputs on the receiver either involves turning everything off, or turning it back repeatedly).

[acchow]

I would suggest avoiding Samsung for TVs. LG is miles ahead.

I also have a Hisense Android TV and would avoid any Android TV's.

[qwertfisch]

Miles ahead? Last year I bought a new generation LG (WebOS 22), and its menus are so damn slow. Everything is an app. Open settings to change the picture or something? Yes, please wait five seconds to load the first menu. And then it’s still stuttering and reacting slowly.

Ridiculously bad is the „Home Screen“ (Netflix-like UI with every app and suggestions and so one in one place), which needs even longer to start.

And the worst thing is: all of these internal apps are reloaded EVERY TIME I use them. No preloading, no caching. Everything lags and needs several painful seconds to display.

(And then LG did not even bother to pay some cents for the DTS license so that I am unable to watch movies from USB sticks with DTS audio track, and I would have to convert them to Dolby AC3 first on my computer …)

The LG display is nice, though it’s far from perfect, which is a problem of ALL televion sets, and I don’t know why because _monitors_ on the other hand are always pixel perfect, but televisions seem never be able to get configured pixel-sharp, even with perfect video material. It’s ok for the money I poured into. Just a big screen.

An also bad part of LG is the lack of apps and the control LG holds over the store. There isn’t even a web browser available, just the crappy thing from LG built-in, which does not even have all TLS certificates. I wish I had bought a TV with Android.

[jasomill]

Furthermore, if you're connecting devices like PC GPUs that don't support CEC, most LG TVs have an RS-232 interface that supports all the basic "dumb TV" commands, including most of what you'd want to do with CEC or IR remote (power on/off, input select, volume, brightness, and other basic audio and video settings).

RS-232 control also has a command to disable OSD, which has the pleasant side effect of disabling annoying smart TV bits like pop-up notifications even when the TV is connected to the Internet (and also superfluous [to me] non-smart TV pop-ups that ordinarily appear when switching inputs and adjusting visually apparent settings like brightness).

Disabling the OSD also disables the bundled Magic Remote, though IR remotes still work (unless locked out with another command) and OSD can be re-enabled via RS-232, or by simply power-cycling the TV.

As a bonus, input switching via IR remote (or RS-232) is noticeably faster than switching via Magic Remote, even if you set up hotkeys, as full-featured LG IR remotes have hard buttons for each input that don't require press-and-hold to activate (this includes sub-$10 service remote knock-offs on Amazon, which work perfectly fine IME, though you may want to steer away from these in a casual setting as some of the service buttons can cause undesirable behavior).

For my own use, I wrote a trivial ASP.NET Web API wrapper around the LG RS-232,

https://github.com/jasminetroll/LgTvControl

While only tested on macOS controlling the TV I own (55SK9000), the documentation it's written against isn't model-specific and I'm not using any platform-specific .NET APIs, so it should work across many TV models and on any platform that supports RS-232 and .NET (.NET 6.0+ as currently configured, though it was mostly developed on .NET Core 3.1, so changing TargetFramework in the csproj file should suffice to get it running on older versions).

[dhc02]

Thanks for this. Some useful info here.

[mustacheemperor]

I have an LGCX and if I hadn't connected it to the internet I would have missed out on some important software updates that significantly improved the display performance.

I guess you can toggle the internet on and off when updates are published, but it's not the most convenient solution.

Edit: But you can use a USB! Woohoo, thank you repliers!

[addaon]

LG (at least for my OLED model) supports firmware updates over USB, and posts firmware updates to their website. It's a very smooth flow -- my years-old TV has never had an internet connection and is up-to-date.

[mustacheemperor]

Thank you, and babypuncher, for this advice! I avoid using the tvos but dislike how a parade of web connected ads pop up if I hit the dashboard button by accident. Glad I can airgap it again.

[silisili]

Most, if not all, routers have a one click blacklist device option. Pretty easy to just unblock it once a month and check for updates?

Alternatively, for something more automated, you could just use parental control 'bedtime'. I use it currently to keep the kid from watching TV at certain hours. Could probably do the inverse and block it except for an hour on a particular day, I'd imagine.

[babypuncher]

You can update the firmware on LG TVs with a USB drive, no internet required.

[b112]

"Why you got such a bent nose, Muggs McGee?", asked Jimmy.

As Jimmy waited for a reply, as Muggs turned beet red, he again noticed how that poor nose was bent, deformed even, and did the man no favour.

Muggs, anger at a peak, spat out "Twas the babypuncher, Jimmy, the babypuncher. He got me as a babe"

[parker_mountain]

> I have an LGCX and if I hadn't connected it to the internet I would have missed out on some important software updates that significantly improved the display performance.

Fwiw toggling the internet is an easy fix compared to the "dumb tv" way of updating firmware - putting a bin on a flash drive.

[bee_rider]

I’d tend to assume that any data collected would be uploaded opportunistically whenever an internet connection was available.

[cfeduke]

Most likely. I worked at a political company (eww) that used this data up to two years after it was generated. The historical data is more useful for political markets for advertising issues than near real time since campaign targeting usually needs to be performed or at least planned a few weeks in advance. Near real time is great for message tweaking but knowing whether there's a receptive demographic is historical.

[jrockway]

I think you'd have to write a DNS server where you choose what to return NXDOMAIN for. So updates.samsung.com, sure, let it connect, but spying.samsung.com, block. (Obviously, do not allow connections to any IP addresses you haven't yet approved, which you approve by manually retrieving the DNS entries.) This can be defeated with DoH, or by different business units inside the company cooperating to use the same domain for different purposes, or by doing the TLS negotiation with good.samsung.com but setting the Host header to evil.samsung.com, etc. The first is too scary to ship (you have to keep the DoH's IP address and certificate safe forever; I wouldn't sign off on that), and the second made me chuckle as I was typing it.

I'll add that "back in my day" a screen could display the video signal on its inputs without ever needing a software update. But I suppose automatic time zone changes are a reasonable reason that code needs to be pushed post-manufacture. Then again, who needs a clock on their TV?

[bee_rider]

I have an unfortunately smart TV, which of I’ve never connected to the network. In general

* it is effectively dumb to me, so I don’t care about feature updates

* it isn’t connected to the network, so I don’t care about security updates

It hadn't occurred to me that there could be TVs out there that are so “smart” that they can’t even take an input without a network connection. Such a device would be returned as defective by me, but of course I can see somebody deciding that packing it all up into the car is too much of a pain.

[TheHappyOddish]

A squid proxy is a much easier solution, whitelist only.

Video codec upgrades and software processing are nice things to have and often worth the update.

[spiderice]

What data could a smart tv collect on you if you're treating it like a dumb tv? Assuming it lives its life disconnected from the internet with an Apple TV/Roku/Chromecast connected to it. Would it have any data on you other than, maybe, when the tv has been turned on?

[bee_rider]

I mean, Forbes, so take it with a grain of salt, but

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernardmarr/2017/02/08/shocking...

> Once every second, software in the Vizio TVs would read pixel data from a segment of the screen. This was sent home and compared against a database of film, television and advertising content to determine what was being watched.

[OneLeggedCat]

He said, "Even if just to support such a project"