[bilqis]

Although it should be said, thay holodomor’s nature is still disputed by historians. Some people, especially politically or nationally biased, claim that that was deliberate genocide of specifically Ukrainians. While it serves specific purpose as a narrative, more historians agree that a) famine affected not only Ukrainians, but all people living in a wide region, including not only what’s considered to be Ukraine today, but millions of other, b) there are no direct evidences supporting the genocide claim, no evidence supporting any deliberation. Much more probable explanation is combination of poor organisation of food collection from the villages and bad weather conditions for multiple seasons (that region had regular famines and dry seasons in the past, before USSR too, and it only stopped after 40s, when various actions were taken to improve agricultural stability there).

[ZeroGravitas]

It's a bit of a political quagmire to wade into, especially given the current events in the area, but I watched the film Mr Jones, which deals with the famine being reported to the West, and then read this article by one of his descendants:

> https://www.garethjones.org/mr_jones/true_story.htm

I think it's relatively evenhanded in it's take.

> The new film Mr Jones aims to tell the story of my great uncle, the Welsh journalist Gareth Jones. It is based on his 1933 world exclusive exposing the great famine then raging across much of the USSR, particularly in Kazakhstan and Ukraine; a famine which Moscow was desperate to conceal. His scoop upset two governments and instead of being feted for his honest reporting he found himself denigrated by the pool of Moscow foreign correspondents, blacklisted by the Soviet Union and blackballed by the British establishment.

...

> The film leads the viewer to believe only Ukraine was affected, but, as my uncle reported, millions were dying across the Soviet Union. In his famous Berlin press conference, on 29 March 1933 on leaving Russia, he reports: ‘Everywhere was the cry, ‘'There is no bread. We are dying.'' This cry came from every part of Russia, from the Volga, Siberia, the North Caucasus, Central Asia.' Gareth was not just a ‘Hero of the Ukraine', he was also a hero for people suffering across the Soviet Union;

[webmobdev]

There's a lot of history revisionism being done by the current Ukranian regime's propaganda. It's understandable but it's also sad as its just poor short-term politics that is going to keep Ukranian society divided for a long time, as they continue to treat every Ukranian who has some nostalgic memory from the soviet era as an "agent of Russia". No one can run away from their past.

[scp_not_gpt]

Not really. The nature of Holodomor is only disputed by the historians who care to push a specific agenda - be it politically or ideologically motivated. USSR is also did a fine job to whitewash any of its past crimes.

> "that region had regular famines and dry seasons in the past, before USSR too, and it only stopped after 40s, when various actions were taken to improve agricultural stability there" - care to elaborate on this?

[hydrok9]

It's pretty clear that Stalin used the famine to help liquidize non-Russian groups who had strong identites and had resisted collectivization. Ukrainians were #1 on this list. It's a textbook play.

https://www.amazon.ca/Holodomor-Reader-Sourcebook-1932-1933-...

[bilqis]

I think the source you’re linking is very biased, as well as your claims are very wild and require thorough proofs.

[hydrok9]

Have you read it? It's very comprehensive. I would highly recommend you do so if you are at all interested in the subject.

What "non-biased" sources would you recommend?

It's also not very wild, from a historical point of view, for an authoritarian leader to destroy or decimate ethnic groups or communities. In fact, it's extremely common, as it is an effective way of consolidating power.

[medo-bear]

> Stalin used the famine to help liquidize non-Russian groups

Stalin was an ethnic Georgian. Why would he do that?

[hydrok9]

Political stability and in order to gain their assets without compensation.

[lisasays]

The nature of Holodomor is only disputed by the historians who care to push a specific agenda.

You can believe that if you want. Without factual references to back up what you're saying, though - it's just a a flat, sweeping assertion.

[barrysteve]

The wiki article says most of what you cover. People were killed in ukraine and the wider surrounding areas too. It has a whole section for the genocide question.

Proving a political apparatus intended to genocide another race of people, is difficult. A competent politician will not record, share or allow that intent to be officially existant.

In popular culture, Joe Biden has cheapened the domestic meaning of the word genocide.

It used to be an existential threat to the whole west post-ww2 and now he is describing the russia-ukraine war in these terms.. probably accurately to some degree. But nonetheless genocide is on-the-table as a term people share liberally around when talking about small wars, in popular culture.