[Joker_vD]

> Undefined behaviour renders your entire program meaningless

That's exactly the complaint. Consider that the implementations of the standard library sometimes have exposed UB: that renders behaviour of all of the running code on the system undefined.

Many programmers believe that the fallout of the UB could, and therefore should, be limited in scope.

[coliveira]

To achieve your goal, compilers would have to disable any sufficiently powerful optimization. If you write bugs (UB), a powerful compiler will eventually catch them and generate code that you didn't intend at the beginning. However, this is not the fault of the compiler or the language.

[chongli]

Compiler writers have already done this. With flags you can disable any optimization you like, with all of the performance loss that entails. But then people complain that their programs are slow.

What people really want is an AI that ignores the code they write and just “does what they really meant.” But of course that’s not foolproof either. Every day people ask each other to do things and miscommunications occur, with the wrong thing being done. I don’t really know what to say other than “people should be more careful and also more forgiving.”

[coliveira]

Exactly. All the hoopla about UB is complaining about how compiler optimizations work and the fact that the standard committee makes clear (with each new meeting) what is considered undefined behavior or not. They should instead thank the committee for clarifying this.

[adgjlsfhk1]

It is the fault of the language to the extent that the purpose of the language is to make it easy to write correct programs, and UB makes it really hard (and in some cases impossible) to write correct programs.

[coliveira]

It is just the opposite. UB is a clarification to tell programmers what the language considers to be undesired behavior. If they didn't say anything, it would be always a mystery if a certain construct was allowed or not, effectively making it compiler dependent. Compilers would also have less avenue for creating optimizations. In the next iterations of the C standard we may see more constructs classified as UB.

[adgjlsfhk1]

That sounds good in theory, but many things that are UB in C/C++ are UB because they are really hard to verify at compile time which makes them almost impossible to program around. Any signed addition in C is potential UB unless you have a proof that all numbers that will ever be input to the addition won't cause overflow (which is made harder because C doesn't define the size of the default integer types). Furthermore, no progress is UB which means that as a programmer, you have to solve the halting problem for your program before knowing whether it has a bug.

[jcranmer]

> many things that are UB in C/C++ are UB because they are really hard to verify at compile time which makes them almost impossible to program around

The second half of the sentence doesn't follow from the first. Take everyone's favorite example, signed integer overflow: all you have to do to avoid UB on signed integer overflow is check for overflow before doing the operation (and C23 finally adds features to do that for you).

Taking a step back, the fundamental thing about UB is that it is very nearly always a bug in your code (and this includes especially integer overflow!). Even if you gave well-defined semantics to UB, the semantics you'd give would very rarely make the program not buggy. Complaining that we can't prove programs free of UB is tantamount to complaining that we can't prove programs free of bugs.

It actually turns out that UB is actually extremely helpful for tools that try to help programmers find bugs in their code. Since UB is automatically a bug, any tool that finds UB knows that it found a bug; if you give it well-defined semantics instead, it's a lot trickier to assert that it's a bug. In a real-world example, the infamous buffer overflow vulnerability Heartbleed stymied most (all?) static analyzers for the simple reason that, due to how OpenSSL did memory management, it wasn't actually undefined behavior by C's definition. Unsigned integer overflow also falls into this bucket--it's very hard to distinguish between intentional cases of unsigned integer overflow (e.g., hashing algorithms) from unintentional cases (e.g., calculating buffer sizes).

[the_why_of_y]

My complaint here is that it took C more than 30 years between defining signed integer overflow as UB and providing programmers with standard library facilities to check if a signed integer operation would result in overflow.

I much prefer Rust's approach to arithmetic, where overflow with plain arithmetic operators is defined as a bug, and panics on debug-enabled builds, plus special operations in the standard library like wrapping_add and saturating_add for the special cases where overflow is expected.

[c4mpute]

> all you have to do to avoid UB on signed integer overflow is check for overflow before doing the operation

All you have to do is add a check for overflow _that the compiler will not throw away because "UB won't happen"_. The very thing you want to avoid makes avoiding it very hard, and lots of bugs have resulted from compilers "optimizing" away such overflow checks.

[xigoi]

> all you have to do to avoid UB on signed integer overflow is check for overflow before doing the operation (and C23 finally adds features to do that for you).

…making your code practically unreadable, since you have to write ckd_add(ckd_add(ckd_mul(a,a),ckd_mul(ckd_mul(2,a),b)),ckd_mul(b,b)) instead of a * a + 2 * a * b + b * b.

[chongli]

See my other comment [1] which addresses the exact things you brought up here. Safe checked arithmetic is a new standard feature in C23. If no progress were not UB, then tons of loop optimizations would be impossible and then we couldn’t have nice things, like numpy.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35406554

[coliveira]

> Any signed addition in C is potential UB unless you have a proof that all numbers that will ever be input to the addition won't cause overflow

This has always been the case. Standard C has always operated with the possibility that addition can overflow. The programmer or library writer is responsible to check if the used types are large enough. If you want to be perfectly sure you need to check for overflow. Making this UB has not changed the nature of the issue.

> is made harder because C doesn't define the size of the default integer types

They correctly made this implementation defined. But C now has different byte sized integer types if you want to be sure.

[CJefferson]

Is the improved performance of C over say Java, or Rust (which both have much less undefined behaviour -- Java almost none) worth the pain and bugs which have been caused by UB?

Honestly, I don't think so, and as computers get more powerful and the amount of the world which relies on their correct functioning grows, I feel the arguments for UB become increasingly difficult to justify.

[chongli]

I went to look up undefined behaviour in Rust and I got this scary warning:

Warning: The following list is not exhaustive. There is no formal model of Rust's semantics for what is and is not allowed in unsafe code, so there may be more behavior considered unsafe. The following list is just what we know for sure is undefined behavior. Please read the Rustonomicon before writing unsafe code.

After the warning was a list of many of the same types of things that are undefined behaviour in C. In addition, there’s a bunch more undefined behaviour related to improper usage of the unsafe keyword.

So I don’t think you get a free lunch with Rust here. What you get is a “safe” playground if you stay within the guard rails and avoid using the unsafe keyword. But then you are limited to writing programs which can be expressed in safe Rust, a proper subset of all programs you might want to write.

Furthermore, the lack of a formal specification for Rust is one area where it lags behind C, a standardized language. All of the undefined behaviour in C is decreed and documented by the standard, having been decided by the committee. Rust, on the other hand, may have weird and unpredictable behaviour that you just have to debug yourself, which may or may not be compiler bugs.

[CJefferson]

I agree rust isn’t perfect, but I think you underestimate the value of “safe” code.

I often write programs that have unsafe code. However, the unsafe code is never more than 100 lines, which means I have a very small amount of code to reason about — Rust users expect (of course, you as a programmer has to enforce) that it should be possible to cause UB from safe code, so my “safe interface” to my unsafe code ensures my code can’t cause UB, no matter what I call.

On problem with Rust is generally when you mess up it panics — I think that’s better than buffer overflows and the like, but still not a good user experience.

This means there is a very small amount of code I have to really think about, while in C or C++, basically any place x[i] appears (regardless of if x is a pointer or a std::vector).

You can of course write safe C code, people do, but it’s hard, and it only takes one slip up anywhere in your program to blow it.

[Kranar]

C does not have a formal specification either. It has a standard's document that is written using formal English, but it does not provide a formal spec of C's semantics. A formal spec of a programming language's semantics would entail using a formal semantic model such as operational or denotational semantics. Some programming languages do specify the formal semantics for the entire language or some subset of the language but C is not one of them.

Your claim that the C Standard lists all undefined behavior is actually false. The C Standard only lists out the explicit list of undefined behavior, but it does not list out the implicit list of undefined behavior. There have been efforts to make just such a list but it's an incredibly difficult task.

[saagarjha]

Java can optimize programs to make well-defined but very rarely occurring cases be on the slow path. C can't really do this.