[rnk]

I disagree with that. First, Faang salaries are way over middle class. If inflation reduced your salary by a bit, think about how much more ia reduction impacted the salary of an average middle class person. As you make more money you have more disposable income so the impact of little bit less money when you make more is smaller.

[seanmcdirmid]

Our buying power isn’t much more than our parents, it is noticeably less when it comes to housing. My dad got a mortgage on a $100k home in the late 80s when he was making above that per year contracting. There is simply no way a FAANG job at below director level would allow for that.

From that perspective, yes a lot of people make less, but that just means life is becoming impossible for most people making normal salaries.

[satvikpendem]

That's due to NIMBYism and people not wanting to construct more housing, not due to wages per se.

[seanmcdirmid]

> That's due to NIMBYism and people not wanting to construct more housing, not due to wages per se.

Not really. Housing is simply becoming more expensive to construct, even in places where land is cheap and building regulations are open. But let's say even if NIMBYism was significant factor: why are all the good jobs where people want to live correlated with higher factors of NIMBYism? Why doesn't everyone just want to move to Houston (which is losing population these days, even if the metro is gaining)?

[satvikpendem]

> why are all the good jobs where people want to live correlated with higher factors of NIMBYism?

What a strange question, as if it reverses the correlation. People who buy a property before new people come in, such as SF during the 60s, will inevitably see their home prices rise and want to capture that value without wanting to build more housing. The places where people don't want to live simply...don't see this phenomenon, because people don't want to live there. Of course supply and demand still matters, you can't just build houses in some random part of the country and expect people to move there. You need to build where people want to move. This doesn't really have to do anything with not building more housing, and indeed NIMBYism explicitly denies housing construction approvals.

[seanmcdirmid]

People have been property in SF after the 1960s. In fact, much of its housing stock was built since 1980.

> You need to build where people want to move. This doesn't really have to do anything with not building more housing, and indeed NIMBYism explicitly denies housing construction approvals.

Just because everyone wants to live in SF, which has a density much higher than Houston, doesn’t mean everyone can live in SF. If SF was a dense as Manhattan, it wouldn’t be any cheaper than it is now, it might even be as expensive as Manhattan.

[fzeroracer]

FAANG salaries are not over middle class and this kind of rhetoric is used to fuel class warfare by businesses and companies among the poor and middle classes.

The fact is that in the modern day even on a FAANG salary a lot of people cannot afford to buy a home of their own. And the salary band at those companies is incredibly wide, owing in fact due to the wide disconnect in salary between engineers, middle management and the c-suite.

[jghn]

The median *household* income in the US is around 80K. That's well below the *starting* income for a FAANG engineer.

[satvikpendem]

I think the point they're making is that salaries should be higher, given the discrepancy between productivity and pay that started appearing in the 70s [0].

[0] https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

[triceratops]

That's the point GP is making. FAANG salaries aren't too high, median salaries are too low.

[fzeroracer]

Yes, thank you. That's the exact point I've been getting at. Median salaries for workers in the US is far too low and should be brought up, rather than fighting to bring FAANG engineers lower which is exactly what businesses want.

[jghn]

I agree with this, but that's a separate argument. I suppose if one viewed "middle class" as a state of being and not as in middle/median, then sure.

[ChuckNorris89]

>Median salaries for workers in the US is far too low and should be brought up

But how do we do this?

[fbdab103]

Uhhhh, if I go to levels right now, the Google Entry Level L3 total comp is $190k[0]. The US median household income in 2021 was ~$71k [1]. Where do you think the middle class line lands?

[0] : https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-en...

[1] : https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...

[fzeroracer]

Above what even your average senior engineer is making.

I'm not a FAANG worker; I make well below what they make. I simply do not ascribe to the crab-in-a-pot mentality that a lot of posters here seem to have in attempt to further divide what is ultimately a large range of middle class workers. Total compensation also only matters depending on the total CoL because a lot of those companies require you to live in areas with incredibly high rent, especially with the attempt to remove remote work. And even with FAANG the salary between an engineer at Amazon and one at Google is going to vastly differ, especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at.

For reference, Pew Research defines middle class as 1.66 - 2x the median salary in America. That would make most tech workers middle class, and FAANG engineers in the lower upper class. In places like San Francisco where the cost of living is significantly higher, you would need to be earning ~230k a year to be in the upper middle class [1]. Though that's by one narrow definition.

The fact is that even your senior tech worker making ~200k a year is barely a blip on the radar compared to how much executives and investors are stealing. If you want to fall for their rhetoric and wonder why things are getting worse for everyone then you shouldn't be surprised.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major...

[ZephyrBlu]

The median income in the US is $41k for all workers and $56k for full-time, year-round workers. $71k is the average household income.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizat...

In your CNBC article everything is based on household income. Many SWEs would be classed as not middle class based on their own income let alone household income.

The median SWE salary in the US is $110k: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/....

If you take increased salary due to location and partner salary into account, the majority of SWEs are easily upper middle class.

> In places like San Francisco where the cost of living is significantly higher, you would need to be earning ~230k a year to be in the upper middle class

A solo entry level FAANG engineer basically qualifies for upper middle class. Add a partner and you're definitely upper middle class.

> And even with FAANG the salary between an engineer at Amazon and one at Google is going to vastly differ, especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at

What are you talking about with "especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at"? As far as I've seen Retail vs AWS doesn't have different comp.

Google and Amazon also have pretty similar comp: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon&track=Software....

Their comp bands likely have a lot of overlap. Differences are more likely to be based on negotiation than working for Google vs Amazon.

[fzeroracer]

A test engineer, a software engineer and a QA engineer all working at either Amazon, Amazon Games or Twitch are going to have often vastly different comp levels and often lower than what's reported on those sites from my experience. Since Washington now requires companies to post wage/salary range, you can simply look up job postings in that state to get an idea of how wide the band is. Sites like what you share are often going to be representative of the upper band of the salary range since that's who self-reports.

My argument has always been that they exist in the middle class. The fact that median income being low isn't indicative of them not being middle class, but rather that the continued squeeze on salary among all middle class workers has resulted in a shrinking of who actually is middle class and what that income means.

[rnk]

I'm sorry but your idea of what middle class is seems to be way out of wack with the reality that people face. Avg people make a lot less than the mentioned 190k, and if you make over 100k, you are close to being in the top 10% band of salary. If you make 200k are you definately in the top 10%. Most people make vastly less than software engineers. With avg salary around 55k, and that should be included in "middle class". Can you find some statistics or reports that backup your claim that "middle class" is so much higher?

[ZephyrBlu]

SDET, SWE and QA are completely different roles so of course they have different comp. Twitch's comp seems very similar to Amazon's for SWEs though: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Twitch&track=Software....

> Sites like what you share are often going to be representative of the upper band of the salary range since that's who self-reports

Many people have corroborated that levels.fyi is accurate for large tech companies like Amazon and Google. It's accurate for my company as well.

If FAANG comp is middle class, at what point does it become upper middle/upper class? I believe ~$500k is 1% income in the US. Some SWEs who are "workers" break that. Is someone who has top 1% income really middle class?

A lot of SWEs also receive equity compensation (I.e. ownership), which is very much not a middle class phenomenon.

[CapstanRoller]

"Middle class" doesn't actually mean anything.

[VirusNewbie]

What are you talking about? Maybe for entry level with only a couple years they couldn’t own a home but come on? You think there are mid/senior level people with 5+ years working there who cannot afford a home??

[photonbeam]

Yes there are, as the homes they want to buy are near work and those are really expensive