[tomohawk]

It's more like the F35 over promises and under delivers compared to what it is expected to replace. The F15 comes with a 20,000 hour airframe, while the F35 comes with a 8000 hour airframe. The F15 can get to target much faster, much farther, and still have fuel to do something when it gets there. The F15 can carry 12 AIM-120s (or 24 depending), while the F35 can carry 4. The F15's a great interceptor. The F35 is a great aircraft, but too expensive and limited to operate in that role.

The following article analyzes the F15EX buy that is being debated as compared to the F35.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/buying-just-80-f-15exs...

[SonicScrub]

This is why both platforms exist. There seems to be this strange idea that the F35 must be compared against the abilities of fighter in a direct 1v1 dogfight scenario, despite that this situation would almost never happen. Modern air-to-air engagements are not squads of fighters dueling one another, but instead entire fleets of aircraft with differing roles and responsibilities working together in a coordinated fashion. AWACs, electronic warfare planes, missile trucks (like the F15EX), and fighters that can get in close all working together. This is environment the F35 was designed for. The fleet level data-link and sensor fusion capabilities of the F-35 are it's main feature, as they augment the capabilities of the entire fleet. Then fact that F15EX can act as a better standalone interceptor is not really relevant, since it would almost never perform this role unsupported. An F35 and F15EX operating in tandem would be much more effective than either operating alone, since the F35 could enter areas covered by opposing fighters / ground fire, and feed sensor information to the F15EX to take out threats outside of its own sensors range.

[jmvoodoo]

This is why both platforms were designed to be used together as a team. F-35 provides sensor fusion and the F-15 is the missile truck. That also allows the F-35 to continue to evade detection, since launching attacks tends to get you noticed by the enemy.

Modern air combat can't be measured in direct comparison like this, or even thought of in terms of "we should be using X instead of Y"

The F-35 costs are also going down relative to it's peer group as the export market has grown significantly. The F-35s issue is that it's misunderstood, not that it doesn't meet expectations.

[zoomablemind]

It always seemed to me that F-35 is an advanced replacement to F-16, which excelled in networked and multi-role operations.

Of course, by now the networked operations are in use by other aircraft too, just F-16 and F/A-18 operate at the very tip of the multi-role.

Whether the networked use could remain operational in a conflict against technologically advanced enemy (with saturated ECM and comparably aggressive AA systems) is not yet proven. Also with addition of drones, the whole air-dominance becomes a tough objective to attain.

[nradov]

The F-16 never really "excelled" at multirole operations. It was pressed into that because there were no other options available. But it has always had an insufficient fuel fraction and is forced to depend on constant tanker support to accomplish anything. The tankers are becoming more vulnerable.

[jghn]

Isn’t the F22 the successor to the F15, being air superiority fighters?

[yetanotherloss]

It was but production was scaled back so much, and the peer enemy aircraft it was needed to defeat still largely don't exist yet. As a result the production lines were shut down and equipment moved to permanent storage and other multirole fighters that are usually less expensive end up doing the F22's job.

In the horrifying event of a US-China war or similar they'd be front line units along with F-35s and other modern fighters, but as is they'll probably end up on service life extension and retired without ever being used much in combat.

The F-15 was sold to other nations and IIRC the majority of its air superiority engagements were with the Israeli air force.

[jghn]

Sure, 100% agree w/ all of that. Just pointing out that F15 vs F35 as a fighter isn't the right comparison, as they're not intended to fill the same roles. I think of the F22 as the ultimate expression of the old style of fighters, whereas the F35 is the start of a new style of military aircraft.

[stametseater]

The F-15E and F-15EX (specifically these 'E' variants, aka "Strike Eagles") are multirole strike fighters. They're derived from an air superiority fighter and remain capable of filling that role, but being strike fighters they have a new emphasis on attacking ground targets with precision bombs. It is very similar to the way the F-14, the Navy's old air superiority fighter, was later turned into a strike fighter with the addition of LANTIRN (which the F-15E also got.) In addition to LANTIRN, the F-15E also gained a second seat for a weapon systems officer. Two seat F-15s had previously existed as trainers, but F-15s configured for air superiority normally have a single seat.

The F-22 is foremost an air superiority fighter and was intended to replace all the air superiority F-15s (but not the F-15E Strike Eagles.) However the USAF didn't get enough F-22s so they still have air superiority F-15s and will for some years to come.

[sandworm101]

It was, but since 22 production has stopped and there are plenty of 15s around, the 35 is often paird up with the 15 for wargaming. Doctrine and training is always dictated by practicalities like which aircraft you have to play with.

[avereveard]

The f15 is going to be shoot down 60km from target by s400s, the f35 can get close enough to drop an harm on them at a speed they cannot intercept, so there's that.

Also the f15 has speed or range, and if you need one it reduces the other.

[greedo]

You try flying an F-15 with 12 to 24 Slammers (and bags since you'll have so much drag. That's going to fly like a pig. Just because Boeing does some demo of it to sell more airframes doesn't mean it's going to be used that way.

[the__alchemist]

Could go for those quad MRM packs though. Easier than 7 GBU-31s right.