[unethical_ban]

When I last worked in person in IT, a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life. Different people went in the mornings. It was really useful to team-build and feel decent about work.

People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me. I don't understand how people are supposed to have any joy at work, or get over comms barriers, when there is no opportunity to get to know coworkers as people.

[dylan604]

I can have lunch and water cooler chat friends at work, but rarely do they turn into invite over to bbq on the weekend friends. There's a big difference.

You can be friendly, but when something happens at work and one of you no longer works there...things get weird. Those weekend bbqs that you had with work friends no longer happen, or they keep going for a bit, but conversations are awkward since the still employed are no longer free to discuss or the no-longer employed harbors resentment that isn't exactly hidden. What kind of "friend" was that after all?

[good_boy]

It all depends. Most of my coworkers are friendly, some are friends. We respect each other, etc, but it most cases any contacts end when someone leaves the company. The key marker is can I discuss any matters, including inappropriate, politically incorrect? In most cases not. But with true friend we can discuss anything without a fear of being reported. And we are still in contact many year after.

[Dalewyn]

This and other kinds of social issues are why some cultures put a very clear line between professional and personal. God forbid if it concerns intimate matters, which are the worst.

[gopher_space]

Isn't this just another downside to stacked ranking? Plenty of other professions allow you to make friends.

[Pokepokalypse]

I've lost too many friends to mass-layoffs over the years. I just can't do that shit anymore.

[peterangular]

Just responding to some of your points - sorry if this comes off as abrasive.

> a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life

If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically, and perhaps this is a personal fault... but I'm paid to keep my nose down and develop software solutions, not to socialize with colleagues. If we need to meet over work it's best to get that on the calendar so there's some expectation of formality - not in some adhoc social hour/afternoon.

> People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me.

I don't say it with "pride," but I have 100% learned to put distance between my personal and professional lives. Example: every time I have had to deal with suicide scares it's always been a professional relationship/colleague of sorts. It's been three times now, and for some reason I seem like a trustable enough person that people put this on me. I hate it.

Then, there's people who I have thought were close friends who completely ghosted me after moving to a different company - who knows, maybe it's me. But I've heard lots of people express similar frustrations and it's just pushed me to consider every work friendship a "work friendship." I have more equitable and consistent relationships when I make friends outside of my profession, I invest my time and energy there.

Finally there's the emotional investment. When it comes to employment I am not part of a "family," and I'd really appreciate that sort of language to stop. Right now. I am selling my time and labor to a business to solve problems and fulfill operational duties that they require of me. At any point, employer or employee can terminate that relationship because "at will." This is surely not a "family," and I personally believe it is not an ideal spot to sink your social energy. I've seen people have their careers pulled from underneath them after over-investing socially into the company - they do not do well. I'm not here to emotionally invest during my 9-5, I'm here for business. Unless it's a requirement of the job (sales, vendors, talent aq, etc.) I am not putting myself out there socially/emotionally.

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Sorry to share some anecdotes but I think there are very valid reasons to put distance between your work relationships and your personal ones, purposefully erecting a buffer. I think it's very valid if someone wants to keep their work relationships just that: work relationships.

[gopher_space]

> If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically [...]

Just an aside, but at a senior level walking around and bullshitting with people is where a lot of the work gets done. At some point you'll get involved with a project that's so interesting you'll never really stop thinking about it, and then your idea of what someone looks like when they're "working" will change.

[peterangular]

Also at formal senior/project lead/management levels myself. I do not find what you are positing to be my reality, at all.

I don't think bullshitting leads to high productivity or task throughput. Anecdotally, I find the bullshitters are the ones holding the 20-40% of productive IC's back because of constant distractions, spec/scope socializing (and subsequent creep), and just general talking while others are trying to work. If there needs to be a meeting to work out spec I'd rather it be on the calendar where it's company sanctioned, has an agenda, and where we can formally gather action items to be delegated and assigned -- that last list of things does not happen with "bullshitting."

> At some point you'll get involved with a project that's so interesting you'll never really stop thinking about it, and then your idea of what someone looks like when they're "working" will change.

I've been very involved and interested in my work and this has not happened to me yet. People socializing in adhoc 1:1 conversations is where the "good ol' boys" comes from, and it has typically been incredibly damaging to my clients, specs, and timelines. My idea of people working is people traditionally working, adhering to the SDLC, and ensuring technical communications are not private.

In my anecdotal experience, "bullshitting" is a negative thing. I'd rather not be a "bullshitter," and I hope those around me don't use such language to describe me -- especially at a professional level.

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Just to reiterate:

"Bullshitting" != "where a lot of the work gets done." "Bullshitting" is a negative thing.

And, being incredibly invested into a project has not yet changed my opinion on this. I find this comment makes assumptions of future me with the "at some point" language. Using a hypothetical regarding someone else's future self isn't ideal when arguing a point. It feels condescending in a "you just don't know yet" sorta way.

[gopher_space]

This isn't someone coming up to your desk, this is more like two people from different departments rubber ducking each other on the walk to get coffee. It's all pre-spec work as you'd put it, but a bit of a continual review as well. 'Shop talk' doesn't really cover the scope.

> I find this comment makes assumptions of future me with the "at some point" language. Using a hypothetical regarding someone else's future self isn't ideal when arguing a point. It feels condescending in a "you just don't know yet" sorta way.

Yeah I'm working on a certain tone in my writing and haven't quite nailed shifts in PoV e.g. transitioning from you/you to you/one in a single sentence. Appreciate the feedback.

[unethical_ban]

To your first point, the coffee stops improved my ability to work with my teammates and get projects done. We were better for it. And for a fair amount of that time, we were salaried so we were paid to get a job done, not by how long it took.

I see a lot of the points though.