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by jkdufair 1175 days ago
I don’t disagree with the ruling. IA is not lending their copy that they purchased. They are lending a copy of their copy. While that copy is lent out, they are still free to, I.e. read the copy in their possession.
4 comments

That’s technically true. But frankly it seems like such people have a giant stick up their ass. The digital version would be infinitely more accessible, while still maintaining effectively 1-1 access restrictions. I’m not even sure if they’re _is_ a physical IA library one could go to. For all I know they’re in a vault somewhere. Even the USD isn’t backed 1-1 with physical tokens. It seems patently ridiculous that books be held to this standard in this day and age.
It's based on refusing to adapt to a society with digital objects.
Unsurprising that not all of HN is pro-fair use.

That's how you digitally send a copy of a book.

You're saying something similar to "you wouldn't download a car".

I don’t see how you’re refuting their point
> You're saying something similar to "you wouldn't download a car".

It's applying without considering it.

The digital book isn't being kept at the old location because there is no digital book in the physical book.

It's the only way to transfer a single copy of a book without destroying the physical copy.

Judges should consider stuff like this and it's a disappointing ruling.

But go on...

Exactly. And there lies the issue. Internet archive has the book and lends the book simultaneously. Hence why they lost.
No, that’s not why they lost. The reason is because they effectively lend it to many people simultaneously, and implement no controls on getting it “returned” (deleted) by the people they lent it to, while even being aware that some of them don’t “return” it.

The technicality that they keep a copy of the book while it’s being lent isn’t really at issue here at all. It’s not because there are two copies, it’s because there are three or more copies, given to two or more parties at the same time. It has become “distribution” in the eyes of copyright law, beyond the lending analogy.

Even if they did what you described they would still lose. There would be no way to implement a control to prevent an additional simultaneous copy. It's not a technical issue, it's simple impossible inherently.

I don't know why companies keep trying this. MP3.com, Aereo, etc. The precedent is clear.

Do you think it would have made a difference if they bought three copies of the book and then shredded two of them? That way they would have the original they scanned, their digital version they copy to lend, and the loaned digital copy.
No, because they still wouldn’t be lending out what was bought.
This makes logical sense. Pay for one, lend one.
The ruling discusses this (at length!) and concludes that even a buy-one-physical-lend-one-digital scheme would not be acceptable under current law.
> Unsurprising that not all of HN is pro-fair use.

Isn't "fair use" restricted to (a) short portions of a work, (b) used for specific purposes, such as education or criticism?

The entire article is about fair use and how what IA is doing is not fair use. I would like the IA to exist, but I agree with the ruling that their fair use argument is nonsense. It's not a derivative work.
Yet, we should proscute GPL violations when the original GPL code is untouched.
You're comparing apples and oranges.

In the case of a physical object needing to temporarily go digital, it needs to be sent digitally and the records kept, and of course the physical copy has to be kept.

In the case of the GPL there's no physical copy and thus there's no need to consider how to move from one form to the other.

To require that a physical object never be used digitally is bad for society.

People rarely buy copies GPL'ed source code, they obtain a license to the software. Buying something is very different from licensing it.
And also it's a lot easier to copy a digitally borrowed book than it is to copy a physically borrowed book.

There are practical differences between the two, which mean that the law probably should treat them differently. I expect a lot of HN have difficulty dealing with that because they think "but they both contain the same information".

It reminds me of people trying to encode books into prime numbers or the digits or pi or whatnot to "get around" copyright. Fundamentally missing the point.

You cannot even read an ebook without copying it from storage to RAM, to CPU cache, to video RAM, and so on; by your thinking, all owners of ebooks commit multiple instances of copyright infringement every time they read an ebook.
Making a copy in RAM, cache etc does not involve distributing it to other people.
You cannot lend someone a digital instance of the item without copying it. The problem is the sharing of supposedly-one-instance, not the copying.