[tristor]

> If you piss off one bank, bank with someone else; if you piss off every bank, you screwed up.

Everything is a matter of degree, that's not a counter-argument. The issue here is that "social consequences" are a matter of individual relationships, material life consequences are generally a matter of policy. If you find yourself afoul of a banking policy that banks as a group have chosen to take to discriminate against you for lawful speech, you find yourself having material life-altering consequences for your speech.

You are imaging a scenario in which someone is unbanked because one bank rejected them, when in fact the lived reality of the unbanked in the US is that they are unbanked because /all banks/ reject them, or at least all banks they have access to in their community. And it's not as if they've taken specific and directed actions against those banks, in many cases it can be as simple as having priors, which makes it both harder to get and maintain employment, as well as harder to impossible to get banking services. Nearly 10% of the American adult population has prior felony convictions, but once you serve your time it is morally reprehensible to mark you with a scarlet letter that prevents you from getting basic services required to exist in society, like banking.

So sure, someone screws up? Do we damn them forever for screwing up? Is MERE SPEECH enough to damn someone forever? Because that's what we're talking about here. That's the "muh consequences" argument you're making by implication, even if not explicitly.

The way you imagine "consequences" working, is not how it actually works. Your delusion is not reality, and reality is a harsh mistress. We are accountable for the arguments we make and the policy positions we espouse to their actual reality, not to our imagined outcomes.

Be brave enough to just say that you don't believe in freedom of speech, and that you're okay if 10-20% of the population ekes out an abject miserable existence or dies due to their belief system or utterances, because that's the reality of "muh consequences".

[jjk166]

Again, there is no line between individual relationships and life altering consequences. You piss off the love of your life, you lose your spouse. You piss off the dean of your college, you lose a chance at an education. You piss off your boss, you get blacklisted from a company. Actions have consequences and part of your freedom is that you have the option to screw up your life.

Freedom of speech means you're not going to go to jail for what you believe in, you're not going to be fined, no one can legally beat you or invade your home or do anything else to you that they are not allowed to do to everybody.

But the idea that a bank has an obligation to you just because you really need a bank is absurd. If I believe you to be damned forever because you looked at me funny, the government has no right to force me to believe otherwise, because that's what freedom of belief really means. I'm sorry that you live in a real world where being ostracized from society is extremely undesirable, but maybe consider doing things that don't get you ostracized from society. Alternatively, go live alone in the woods. Those are the options we all have.

If you think people should be compelled to endorse the speech of others, then just admit you don't believe in freedom of speech.

[tristor]

> If you think people should be compelled to endorse the speech of others, then just admit you don't believe in freedom of speech.

Offering a public service does not constitute endorsement of the speech of others. Effectively banning people from a public service as a matter of policy is not about individual relationships and is materially different than the situations you describe.

The only reason the line of reasoning you're putting forth is under discussions is that right-wing christo-fascists almost got Pornhub and OnlyFans knocked off the Internet by putting pressure on Visa and their banking partners.

If you are unable to understand the difference between an individual choosing not to associate with you due to disagreeing with your speech vs being banned from a public service necessary for existence in our society due to some people disagreeing with your speech and manipulating policy, I don't know how to help you.

You continue to conflate two things that are not the same. Yes, public services should be compelled to not discriminate against people because they exercise their legal rights. This is a pretty straightforward argument and you doing a lot of mental contortions to not address my actual argument. Thanks, though, for confirming you're okay for up to 20% of the population to die because they said something you disagreed with.