[ricardobayes]

On the other hand, imagine what level of services we could have if it wasn't for the tax dodgers and cash in hand payments. I reckon we could fund universal basic income just from whitening the economy, in any given country.

[ifyoubuildit]

I imagine we'd have a similar level of services, and the same level of urgency to raise taxes.

[v4dok]

Depends on the country. For countries with a lot of "black money" and corruption there is an obvious benefit. Taxes yield less because they don't capture the whole economy, as a result taxes are increased and get paid by the "idiots/ethical" which creates a vicious cycle. Now if tomorrow you had everyone paying taxes then 2 things would happen which would result in a new equilibrium. 1. The tax revenues would massively increase 2. People would push for lower taxes because suddenly they care more as their real marginal tax rate is the nominal one.

Would this result in more efficient spending of taxes in a corrupt economy? Not immediately. A lot of shitty people would get reach fast in the meantime, but the system would balance because people would no longer participate in the corruption directly as they used to.

Yes, you remove some freedom, but I am convinced that for societies that have a trust disconnection between the government and the people would be a net benefit (assuming democracy).

Additionally, comercial banks have been pretty shitty on providing liquidity to the real economy throughout the QE (at least in some parts of the west). They had their chance to not be a bottleneck, they missed it. Good riddance.

[sidewndr46]

crypto isn't some magic wand that just makes corruption go away. It'd just be baked into the new system from the get go.

[CapstanRoller]

I don't think the answer is that simple. Sure, cash users are an easy target here, but upon closer inspection things just don't add up. Targeting cash users would have some deeply negative side effects for everyone.

To quote patio11: "The optimal amount of fraud is non-zero". The financial system needs slack, otherwise it destroys itself.

https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...

[prottog]

Imagine if we just had a land value tax to replace all other taxes. Can't dodge that particular tax, unless someone is able to hide a piece of land from being seen.

> I reckon we could fund universal basic income just from whitening the economy, in any given country.

I reckon that no economy, no matter how advanced, is so productive that you can provide a systemic incentive for everyone to not produce anything yet still be guaranteed to be supported. Will some work even when they don't have to? Sure. Will more people not work than before? Almost definitely. Will this effect compound over time and topple the system sooner rather than later? Guaranteed.

[danaris]

There's an ample body of research on basic income now that indicates that almost everyone still works under it. The people who don't are people we shouldn't be requiring to work, like the disabled, new parents (still usually only one), and full-time students.

It is much more likely that the effect will fade over time, as people who are traumatized and exhausted from being forced to work terrible jobs for inhumane hours recover and once against find themselves ready to do something more active and productive.

[snapcaster]

Where is the evidence that isn't temporary, non-universal, or other clear confounders like that? Are you virtue signaling that you have inherent work ethics or things like that or do you _actually_ think people would still work if they didn't have to. Comments like this on HN make me think nobody here ever speaks to a real human

[danaris]

If you want evidence that is permanent and universal, guess what you have to do?

You have to actually implement Universal Basic Income on a large scale, and keep it going for decades.

If you aren't willing to support doing that because "there isn't permanent, universal evidence", then you're creating a catch-22.

There is evidence that is robust and scientifically rigorous. That should be enough, at the very least, to say that we should be doing larger, more extended trials, and to at least plant a seed of doubt about this idea that humans are inherently lazy selfish slobs.

As for "real humans", I've talked to plenty. I know multiple who are constantly frustrated that they are not allowed to work productively, because of disabilities they have that make them inconvenient to employ (as with many disabilities and chronic illnesses, they have good days and bad days: they can work very well some of the time, but can't commit to a schedule that the company controls, because they can't even commit to a schedule that they consciously control).

I don't personally know a single person who, if given the chance, would choose to abandon work of all kinds forever.

[snapcaster]

"I don't personally know a single person who, if given the chance, would choose to abandon work of all kinds forever. " this is what i mean. You're in some kind of insane bubble and need to wake up. Does everyone around you have a "career"? you're glorifying work way beyond regular person life experience

[danaris]

No, they definitely don't. Did you see where I said I knew disabled people who were unemployed because, in our current system, they are unemployable, but actually want to be doing stuff?

The point isn't "glorifying work". It's that people don't actually want to be couch potatoes. They want enrichment. They want activity. They want meaningful stimulation.

Look at us more like zoo animals and maybe it'll make more sense: we know that giving tigers a pumpkin full of meat is more beneficial for their mental health than just dropping the same meat in front of them to eat with no effort. Humans aren't that different.

Even beyond that, though, humans want purpose. We want our lives to have some meaning, and it's pretty hard for most people to find that in sitting around doing nothing all day every day unless they have no other choice.

Perhaps it would also help to note that "work" isn't synonymous with "go to an office and file insurance claims for 8 hours" or anything like that. Writing is work. Acting is work. Making video games is work. Helping old people get around is work.

But the other thing is...if you would, if given the chance, just sit back and relax all day every day...then I hope that you get that chance! I believe that every person should have the opportunity to do what feels most fulfilling to them, and not just be required to work at specific kinds of jobs for specific types of schedules simply to be allowed to continue existing on this planet.

[webnrrd2k]

"Economic Whitening" appears to be suppressing the gray and black markets.

I haven't heard the term before, and thought maybe it had something to do with racial BS. (or maybe a teeth whitening campaign?)

[ss108]

Do you think the reason why we don't have that is because of a lack of money, and not a lack of political will?

[wwalexander]

What makes you think that the increased tax revenue would go to anything benefitting regular citizens?