[maskedinvader]

Can we at HN at-least refer to the author as immigrant as opposed to expats? what's an expat anyways ? why does the western world to get to make these tiers where they are expats but arabs, asians, africans etc are all immigrants ?

[givemeethekeys]

An immigrant hopes to settle down in the host country, have / grow a family there, own property and even become a citizen. Of course, if the host nation does not have a citizenship program for foreigners, then everyone who isn't a citizen is an expat.

An expat hopes, even plans to move back to where they came from. They're in their host nation for work reasons only because, at least according to the expat, where they're from is a "better" place than their host country.

[paxys]

The author has lived there for 20 years, married there, has kids who go to local schools, yet calls himself an expat, and everyone here seems to accept that as an obvious truth. Meanwhile a million+ people coming to the USA on temporary work visas fully intending to go back to their home country (or illegally with no path to citizenship) are obviously immigrants. At some point people have to come to terms that this isn't about some technical definition of "immigrant" vs "expat" but a deeper prejudice.

[givemeethekeys]

China does not have a citizenship program. If you are not born Chinese, you will never be Chinese. Everyone who moves to China is an expat.

What you call yourself, "immigrant" or "expat" is up to you. For example, plenty of Indians call themselves expats in the US. Other Indians call themselves immigrants.

Personally, I'm a fan of the word "alien". God Bless America! :D

[paxys]

Millions of people live in the USA right now with no path to citizenship yet have never been called expats.

[givemeethekeys]

> no path to citizenship

Joining the military can lead to citizenship if they're young enough. Marrying a citizen can also lead to citizenship. Even without becoming a citizen, their children, if they're born here, will become citizens.

[mc32]

There is a distinction between people who follow immigration protocol and those who don't. I China, even following approved, official protocol, it becomes very difficult. The US on the other hand routinely grants American citizenship to foreigners. China makes it very difficult for foreigners immigrating legally and following protocol to become Chinese citizens.

[908B64B197]

Do they have the intent (legal or not) to stay permanently?

An immigrant has an intent to settle, an expat doesn't. In America, one could theoretically lose work authorization should he refer or present himself as an immigrant (if he or she is on a legal status that doesn't allow for immigrant intent).

Same thing in Europe. Thousands of EU citizens live and work anywhere in the EU outside their home country but have no intent on permanently staying there. Often for decades. They are very much expats.

[hnfong]

Chinese nationality is super hard to get if you're not born with it, but it's technically possible to get one, especially in cases as described in the GP.

[_8j50]

Brother/comrad Hao who is Nigerian has Chinese citizenship: https://youtube.com/watch?v=_xotXHjKHqY

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hao_Ge

[LadyCailin]

I don’t know, but this site implies they do have it. https://lawyerschina.net/chinese-citizenship/

[midoridensha]

>The author has lived there for 20 years, married there, has kids who go to local schools, yet calls himself an expat, and everyone here seems to accept that as an obvious truth.

If they refer to themselves as an expat, why are you questioning this? Do you demand proof when someone refers to themselves as male or female too?

I know people living in the US who have been there for 20 years and call themselves expats too. They have no intention of retiring in the US: they plan to move back to their home country at that point in their lives.

>Meanwhile a million+ people coming to the USA on temporary work visas fully intending to go back to their home country (or illegally with no path to citizenship) are obviously immigrants.

Is that what they call themselves? I would normally call them expats, unless they say otherwise.

>At some point people have to come to terms that this isn't about some technical definition of "immigrant" vs "expat" but a deeper prejudice.

At some point, people like you need to stop trying to make everything about racism.

[hnfong]

> >At some point people have to come to terms that this isn't about some technical definition of "immigrant" vs "expat" but a deeper prejudice.

> At some point, people like you need to stop trying to make everything about racism.

But it is. (Kinda.) If you don't look East-Asian in China, the predominant assumption is that you're an "expat". And statistically this is almost always true -- Chinese nationality is extremely hard to obtain if you're not born with it, and probably 99% of Chinese nationals look East Asian and has East Asian ethnicity.

[midoridensha]

Sure, because China basically allows no immigration, but that's not what the OP was referring to, he's complaining about privileged white people and their use of the terms.

[lapama]

Calling yourself an expat is a legitimate attempt to think you have got rid of prejudices against migrants so by calling yourself expat, you perceive they do not apply to you.

[returningfory2]

Would you call South Asian laborers who are temporarily working in construction in Dubai expats? Seems to fit your definition exactly.

[givemeethekeys]

Yes, they're most definitely expats. Their engineer colleagues from South Asia call themselves expats.

[maskedinvader]

Interesting, so why don’t we ever see the word expats associated with the millions of laborers from poorer nations working in the Middle East with no path to citizenship ever referred to as expats ? Let’s be honest here, it’s exclusively only ever used when it’s someone who’s predominately white and from the west (and either rich themselves or come from a rich country)

[rippercushions]

You answered the question yourself: they're laborers, brought in by a third party for a specific purpose like construction, living their lives entirely controlled by the company (housing and food provided, etc) and kicked out as soon as they become unneeded.

Expats have a great deal more agency about their lives: where they live, where they work, when to return, etc.

To be clear, I don't particularly like this distinction, but it absolutely is a thing in the Middle East down to separate immigration lines at airports, and if anything glossing it over by calling the Bangladeshi construction worker living in a container in the brutal heat and sharing a latrine with 50 other guys an "expat" does nobody any favors. Or was the American South powered by African "expat" labor too?

[slaw]

No one calls then immigrants either. They are temporary workers.

[umeshunni]

Huh? The term expat is absolutely used for those workers. Have you even been to the middle east?

[ClumsyPilot]

this distinction is pure fiction - when a UK pentioner retires in Spain, he is an expat.

A spanish banker reassogned to London is somehow an immigrant .

[panza]

An expat is not an immigrant. It would be incorrect to call the author - who is an expat - an immigrant.

[vgchh]

Resident Alien - I think that’s how USCIS calls people who do intend to stay but not immigrate

[dragonwriter]

> Resident Alien - I think that’s how USCIS calls people who do intend to stay but not immigrate

Resident alien is a general term (not specific to the US) for someone who permanently resides in a country without citizenship; it is also an IRS tax term for someone who is either a permanent resident alien or who meets the “substantial presence test” so that they are treated as residents for tax purposes.

A permanent resident alien is another term for someone with a green card, which is for people who intend to (often, already have) immigrated before they qualify for naturalization.

[Tarq0n]

You're just stating a tautology, not providing an argument.

[specproc]

I live outside my home country, and have done for 15 years. I personally dislike "expat", as for me it conjures up an image of a particular sort of person. People can describe themselves however they like though.

[adastra22]

> what's an expat anyways

A white immigrant.

[samus]

That probably depends on your definition of "white". Polish and other people from Eastern Europe are often viewed as immigrants.

[adastra22]

Yes, and these people are often considered non-white by racists.

My point wasn’t about skin color though.

[JCharante]

Funny you say that because I know many expats of color. If you actually pay attention you’ll see people from all over the world.

[adastra22]

I was being snide. But there’s a kernel of truth here: the term expat and immigrant describe the same people. But there is a racist and/or culturally chauvinistic implication in how they are used. Mexican person coming to the US? Immigrant. American moving to Vietnam? Expat.

[shp0ngle]

Expats are from rich country to poor country, immigrants are from poor country to rich country.

[SalmoShalazar]

I don’t think you can expect the HN crown to be anything but western chauvinists. It’s who we are.

[jacooper]

I think he is an expat, because he is writing from the perspective of the west. Also an expat left because he/she wanted to, not forced to.

[toyg]

A lot of economic migrants from the global South are not technically forced to leave: you can live a life of subsistence almost everywhere nowadays. They just think they'll have a better future elsewhere, exactly like expats.