[jzb]

Serious question, if you have to sacrifice personal freedom, what does the great society look like you are willing to sacrifice it for? What freedoms are you willing to give up for what societal benefit?

I’m genuinely curious because every person defines personal freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.

[tiny_ta]

I appreciate your question because I have spent a lot of time in the past thinking about this :)

> I’m genuinely curious because every person defines personal freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.

I couldn't agree more! I believe that all of us have to give up some personal freedom if we want to live in a functional society. I may want to blast music from my rooftop at 3AM but I must curb that urge out of respect for the society I live in. How much of this personal freedom we are willing to give up is different for different people. On this spectrum, I think I lie towards giving up more if it gives me a comfortable society in return.

I am willing to mask up if it means that fewer people in my vicinity may "possibly" get sick less. I am okay with video cameras and facial recognition in public places if it means less crime in my neighborhood. I am willing to pay more taxes if it means public infrastructure can be improved and schools can get better teachers. I might be wrong though, because these things can clearly be taken to an extreme.

[nonethewiser]

Are you really giving up personal freedom if you’re consciously deciding not to do something out of consideration for others?

Usually it becomes a problem because you are infringing on someone else’s personal freedom. So it’s still about maximizing personal freedom in that case.

[tiny_ta]

You're right. Thank you for adding a level of nuance for me to chew on!

[nonethewiser]

Did not expect this reply on the internet. You’ve given me something to chew on as well.

[claytongulick]

I appreciate your perspective, because it's one that I've so often found confounding.

> I think I lie towards giving up more if it gives me a comfortable society in return

It seems like you are very practical minded, which I appreciate.

I think the fundamental skepticism that those of us who tend to be more "libertarian" minded is whether you're actually getting value in return for giving up liberties.

> I am willing to mask up if it means that fewer people in my vicinity may "possibly" get sick less.

I think this was the mentality of the majority of people who supported universal masking, and I think it came from a genuinely good place. The issue that I had with it was the lack of evidence to support universal masking, and the draconian implementation without regard to potential negative consequences. It struck me at the time as being the TSA of pandemic response, more theater than effective intervention. Time and research seem to have borne this out.

> I am okay with video cameras in public places if it means less crime in my neighborhood.

Except they don't on their own [1], but they are an incredible weapon and boost in power granted to the surveillance state.

> I am willing to pay more taxes if it means public infrastructure can be improved and schools can get better teachers.

The relationship between taxes and education outcomes is complex (at best) [2], and you need only live in the North East for a short period of time, pay those exorbitant taxes and drive 95 and the Jersey Turnpike to understand that higher taxes don't necessarily translate to better infrastructure.

Drive from New Mexico, through Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama to Florida sometime and compare the roads and bridges.

I've lived all over the U.S. and experienced the difference between many states. They each have unique challenges, but I can tell you one rule that's held true in all my travels: granting more power and money to the government past a certain point doesn't translate into a better quality of life for the people.

[1] https://www.mtas.tennessee.edu/knowledgebase/there-empirical...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/01/21/a-connec...

[tiny_ta]

I do live in the North east so I partially understand. I would love to go around more of the US and understand these differences. Thank you for your measured response!

[jgwil2]

> Drive from New Mexico, through Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama to Florida sometime and compare the roads and bridges.

TBF it's much easier to maintain infrastructure in a mild climate.

[claytongulick]

Sorry, I should have been more clear: my point was to compare and contrast between the roads and bridges of those states.

There's significant quality differences between them that are noticable as soon as you drive across the state line.

I've done the drive many times, and it's always stood out to me.

[thefounder]

Some are selling their freedom quite cheap. It's really nothing new/hard to imagine.

[nonethewiser]

Im curious as well because everyone is an individual and no one is a society. So who exactly are we sacrificing individuality for?