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by hn_throwaway_99 1185 days ago
OK, I'll take a stab at defending Google's policy here. Not necessarily because I believe they're 100% in the right, but because I see so many of the arguments on the other side completely failing to address some issues of fairness, and of leaning solely into the emotional aspects of this issue ("Person <in heart-tugging situation X> was laid off!"), or just spitting out lazy comebacks ("Google is evil now!!!")

I don't really see this as "Google won't honor medical leave" any more than I see this as "Google won't honor employment agreement". That is, people on medical leave get paid while they're not working but still employed (and, mind you, this is not something that's a legal requirement, but something Google does with their largess - the vast majority of companies, in the US at least, without monopolistic businesses are way less generous), and I'm not sure why being on medical leave should automatically put you in the "you can't be laid off until your leave is over" bucket. After all, tons of people who were laid off who were not on leave had plenty of important reasons they shouldn't be laid off (e.g. I'm sure lots of people had spouses or dependents on Google's health plan who were wholly dependent on it). I just see some fundamental fairness issues that aren't even commented on by people insisting Google is evil.

More importantly, the root cause issue (in the US) is that so many critical benefits are linked to employment. I know that other countries have stricter laws around this (e.g. you can't be laid off on maternity leave), but that's kinda the point - with a broad legal framework of what's required, and especially with many benefits being ensured by the state (especially healthcare), it means that the individuals are not dependent on the generosity (and huge profit margins) of their particular company. I mean, the FAANGs especially like to talk about how generous they are with things like unusually long parental leave (again, relatively in the US), but that's only because they make so much money. There is a reason that restaurants, for example, could never begin to offer this level of leave, and it's not because restaurant owners are inherently more cruel.

If we believe the benefits are important for societal function and fairness, we should pay for them at the societal level, instead of depending on the whims of individual employers to guarantee them.

2 comments

Yes, the root cause is that the U.S. barely has any labor laws, and this puts people in cruel situations that are inconsistent with the level of economic development achieved by this nation.

Many knowledge workers expect stronger guarantees for earned benefits, out of an intuitive sense of ethics and commitment, but those expectations are more in line with labor laws found in European countries. In the U.S., workers often have no recourse or leverage against even small companies, let alone Google. "Earned" benefits evaporate once the employment contract is void.

My PTO is an earned benefit (legally). I’m sure Google is paying those out. Free meals or free office printing are not earned benefits (legally). I’m sure Google is not paying for 30 weeks of meals or printing for laid off workers.

If you agree with the above, the challenge becomes figuring out whether a benefit is more like the legally earned or more like those provided as a courtesy and convenience.

But it should seem pretty obvious that something like maternity leave couldn't, and shouldn't, be an "earned benefit" - should everyone except to accrue a month of "maternity leave benefit" through the ages of 20 and 40 or something?

It's good that we do have benefits that only apply to subclasses of people (i.e. parents), but how those benefits are structured shouldn't be at the whims of a company if we feel, as a society, that they're important for people generally.

I think it would be reasonable for an employer to make some benefits, including certain paid leaves, subject to some minimum tenure. How an employer chooses among those options tells you something about them, but I don’t think a blanket “you cannot offer any benefits subject to tenure” makes a better world.

I do agree with you that if society thinks a benefit is important, society can pay for it directly. Or pass a law to mandate employers (or certain employers) to provide it.

Why is it good that we have benefits that only apply to a subclass of people?
> My PTO is an earned benefit (legally)

Your case does not generalize. In the U.S., there is no federal law requiring the payout of unused PTO.

Absolutely correct, though Google is headquartered in California which does have such a law.
Agreed. All this talk on how Google was supposed to be different, not evil etc etc. Well, are they breaking any US law? No? Okay then, when push comes to shove it won't matter.

USA needs some laws lol

Related (may break american minds): https://imgur.com/a/dAo1D6Q