[EGreg]

To hear you (and other “true believers”) tell it, everyone’s a Putin agent. The Pope is a Putin agent. Leaders and people of countries with billions of people. Hundreds of thousands of protestors in Eastern European countries. And even of thousands of protestors in every Western European country. And even here in the US. Republicans. Progressives. Everyone is spouting Russian propaganda when they call for a resumption of diplomatic discussions and negotiated settlement, and blame NATO for instigating this?

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-congress-progressives-withd...

I have a different theory (as does most of the world outside your bubble). You are the one repeating propaganda. Let me count the ways:

1. NATO attacks Yugoslavia, declares Kosovo independent, destroys Libya and turns it into a failed state, you say very little. You keep repeating it’s “purely defensive” and Russia has nothing to fear.

2. CIA fomented a regime change revolution in Ukraine to overthrow the sitting president, helped train and arm far right extremist paramilitary groups, and you say nothing about it. They likely tried to do the same in Kazakhstan and Belarus, too, but were so far unable. (Russian agencies do this as well btw.) The reality is much more complex than your simplistic one dimensional analysis which ignores all these factors.

4. US/UK forces blow up the pipelines sending gas from Russia to Europe, try to pin it on Russia initially (it failed) and you don’t even care that they screwed European industry and economy etc.

5. Nearly ALL the people with actual domain experience have warned Clinton, Bush, etc. that NATO enlargement will likely lead to war with Russia, especially with Ukraine. And that is exactly what they wanted — Ukraine. You think they care deeply about Ukraine? They cared deeply about Afghanistan? NO, they are simply useful for making Russia bleed, “for as hard and as long as possible,” in the words of Brezhinski. They consider you a “useful idiot” and lie to their own public about their covert actions (eg #4). And then later they declassify it but by that time it’s too late to care:

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/how-jimmy-carter-...

This is the architects of these proxy wars, all the way up to the US President — wars like Afghanistan in which 2 million civilians died just so we can stick it to the Soviets! But during that war they lied to you and then declassified it — and they have NO REGRETS. Two million dead civilians bro. This is the “collateral damage” you are willing to pay cause you’re not the one paying it right?

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

You dismiss calls for peace talks and valuing human beings’ lives as being “Russian propaganda”. I say you are perpetuating US warmonger propaganda. Would you like to stop carrying water for thr CIA and military industrial complex?

Their track record neafly 100% of the time reveals they were behind making sure conflicts commenced and perpetuated them at the cost of real human lives abroad, while you with your one dimensional moralizing sit here and barely notice it. Laos. Nicaragua. Iraq. Afghanistan. Libya. Syria. This time it’s different, right? Wait until they declassify it in 2030 and by then you’ll just say “oh mistakes were made” and by then it will be ANOTHER war that is “different this time”. That is, if there is no nuclear war by then.

[mopsi]

Only Russia, Syria and North Korea support this narrative, while 141 out of 193 UN members have explicitly called this bullshit and demanded Russia to get the fuck out of Ukraine.

It's a simple, yet powerful reminder where Russia stands in the world: 3 vs 141. Even Nazi Germany had more international support.

[EGreg]

Read this link: https://unwatch.org/2022-2023-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-...

We find that UN had 148 countries vote against Israel to get “the fuck” out of the Golan Heights, and only Israel and USA and Liberia voted against. We also find another resolution by the plenary where 141 countries voted and only Israel and USA voted against.

Now according to your logic, the USA is dead wrong, and Nikki Haley should stop telling the rest of the UN how wrong they are and how Israel is the only democracy in the region, etc etc. But then read the Analysis column of the UN resolution — all the stuff they missed in their procedures:

Ignores the existence of the Syrian Civil War and its security implications for Israel and the civilians of the Golan Heights. Also ignores Syria’s history of shelling Israeli communities, its leader’s calls for a “war of annihilation” against Israel, and Syria’s 1967 aggression that led to its loss of the territory. Also neglects Syria’s sponsorship of the enemies of the peace process, and its support for terrorism. Falsely claims that Israel is oppressing and imposing Israeli citizenship on the Arab population of the Golan Heights.

Now, I am not here to argue the nuances of that particular dispute. My point is simply that pointing to UN resolutions against a country doesn’t exactly accomplish as much as you think it does — and also opens you up to charges of hypocrisy because USA is completely on the other side of that. You as the public receive whatever news coverage is appropriate to condition you to support one or the other position. So do people of other countries. I am not saying they are better informed than you — media in most countries is biased and selectively shows only things from one narrative, year after year — but what I am saying is you don’t have the whole story.

I care about actions and consequences on the ground. Libya is destroyed. NATO destroyed it. UN did not authorize NATO to bomb Yugoslavia, and yet they did. NATO is not a purely defensive alliance. Russia is right to fear it just like USA was right to fear USSR placing missiles on Cuba.

For me, it is more complex picture and guess what — for most of the world outside your bubble it is, too. Every time they poll the entire world, USA comes out as a bigger threat than Russia or China. The rest of the world doesn’t agree with you. You think the country you live in “jusy makes mistakes” and others around the world see it as instigating almost every conflict and it would be better if it stayed out.

You should care about data and facts, instead of cherry-picking some only. Look:

2006: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/15/usa.iran

https://nypost.com/2014/01/05/us-is-the-greatest-threat-to-w...

2013: https://brilliantmaps.com/threat-to-peace/

2021: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo...

They poll people around THE ENTIRE WORLD mopsi. How can you see so many people choose USA as the greatest threat to world peace and democracy, and then yawn and say “stop your Russian propaganda”?

India. China. The Pope. Representative samples of billions of people. How can you see all those people blaming NATO for this conflict, and say “well, they’re just wrong and uninformed”?

There is just one conclusion here… you may be the one who has been in a propaganda bubble. You should speak to others around the world outside NATO countries. How often have you done that? To whom?

[mopsi]

> My point is simply that pointing to UN resolutions against a country doesn’t exactly accomplish as much as you think it does

Yes it does. When even closest allies, including the whole Europe, vote against the US, then it's a clear sign that the US position does not have any support in the world, the same way Russia has no support for its narrative on Ukraine when only Syria and North Korea embrace it to the full extent.

That analysis you refer to was written by unwatch.org, a lobby group with strong ties to Israel. I see no reason to value their anonymous assessments higher than the opposing view held by the overwhelming majority of United Nations.

No amount of US-centered whataboutism changes the simple fact that Russia is in total international isolation on Ukraine. 3 vs 141 speaks for itself. 141 countries told Russia to get the fuck out in March 2022 and the same number of countries voted again last month to reaffirm that position.

Given that you are a Russian, I understand your denial. Many Germans couldn't bear the burden and shame of Nazi crimes either and made excuses or denied them until their final breath. Since I live in Eastern Europe, I have front row seat and meet such Russians on daily basis. I can show them Russian missiles raining down on apartment blocks hundreds of miles away from the frontline and they'll make all sorts of stupid and even outright childish excuses to deny that Russia is involved in any way. Apparently all such videos and photos are Photoshopped, hundreds of thousands of refugees are all liars and crisis actors, and so forth. Only the Kremlin never lies.

It's pretty amazing to see how even highly educated Russians totally turn off their brains and start rehashing the same old debunked PR narratives when I mention specific keywords. They act almost like chatbots, say a certain keyword and it'll trigger an automatic response. Somehow everyone became experts on Kosovo (even you!) after Russia started raining down artillery shells on Ukrainian cities. Did they, or is it just a spoon-fed coping mechanism?

[EGreg]

Look, I will try to be blunt and to the point.

You are attacking a strawman. I do not deny that Russia is attacking civilian infrastructure. I do not deny that its soldiers committed war crimes and atrocities. I condemn Russia’s invasion and I even more condemn them arming “moderate rebels” with names like “Strelkov” and “Motorola” since 2014. So literally everything you are ascribing to me is false and a strawman.

What I am also saying, however, was that Russia is not the sole party involved in this proxy war. NATO systematically created the conditions for it, just like USA and Saudi created the conditions to draw USSR into a war in Afghanistan, and later declassified the extent of their involvement. The US has a history of doing this. The entire world for the last 20 years considers the US to be a threat to world peace and democracy far more than Russia and China. The entire rest of the world outside of NATO blames NATO!

It is you who are ignoring this. It is you who can’t bring yourself to blame NATO. It is you who is consoling yourself and coping hard. Look at what others in this thread say… “the ONLY party to blame is Russia, end of story.” “This is the war of one man Putin, end of story.” “There is no other legitimaye point of view, if you disagree you are spouting Russian propaganda and a monster who enjoys rapes and murder.” This breathless insistence on ENDING THE CONVERSATION immediately and shutting down the discussion should tell you something. When I provide copious links to mainstream and official sources for all my points and the other person says “I don’t want to be confused by this forest of links” that shows you what side is not afraid of facts.

The insistence on a laughably cartoonishly one-dimensional explanation, the verbatim repeat of phrases “vaccine hesitancy”, “Russia hacked the election”, “unjustified and unprovoked war”, etc etc. the complete unwillingness to discuss literally ANYTHING outside of that parroting… normally it would be considered NPCs and zombies. The total crackdown on any dissent — The propaganda on the US side to much of the US public just as much as if not more than on the Russian side. And this is with all the freedom of speech we have and they don’t over there!

I remember when we had the Iraq war and we all had to repeat the bullshit explanation “they attacked us because they hate our freedoms”. When Ron Paul repeated the actual stated reasons of Osama Bin Laden he got booed. The American Public also booed McCain when he said Obama is a good family man and not an A-Rab. Many people in this public are very gullible, and the media makes them so. The Fox viewers believe the 2020 election was stolen. The CNN viewers believe the 2016 election was hacked. They’ll believe whatever their media tells them. If you think Left vs Right is biased, just imagine when they join together into US vs THEM (other country). You hear an extremely selective set of news. Ukraine according to them has been winning since April 2022. Russia has been on the verge of running out of weapons any day now. And Russia blew up its own tanks, trains, pipelines, etc. Well, no… the US / UK did. THEY blocked the peace talks (according to Naftali Bennett who was personally close to an agreement between the two presidents). THEY fomented the revolution in Ukraine in 2014. THEY funded the neo nazi battallions secretly via the CIA since 20-4. THEY told Zelensky to stop making peace agreements. And that is just what we know… if other wars are anything to go by, we will learn in 2030 stuff that will make you regret your support just as much as you regret Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan…

Just as an aside, the Taliban in DECEMBER 2001 OFFERED AN UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER AND USA REFUSED! That is the same group that we later ceded the country to 20 years later after a brutal occupation. Literally can’t make this up. They are the ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that gets involved around the globe and fucks it up so much. Probably has a lot of psychopathic malicious people who know FULL WELL what will happen and proceed to do it anyway.

My argument isn’t that Russia is good and isn’t really attacking zumraine. It is that Russia, China and USA are all imperialist shithead countries that destroy everything around them in their proxy wars and meddling. But mostly the USA because it has already defeated everyone around it (native americans - gone, mexico - huge swaths of land stolen, etc) so it goes now around the world in search of more fights. China has started to do that in a more clandestine way (intimidating people abroad, locking up Uyghurs). Compared to those two, Russia is in third place of being an imperialist shit. That’s not saying much but the point is you as a US citizen are the one who can’t bear hearing this about YOUR country. Go buy a book like “Rogue State” and read it. You might realize that you’re projecting.

Most regular people don’t want to kill anyone and don’t endorse endless regime change wars. So they might protest and say that sending weapons go Ukraine is gonna get a lot of Ukrainians killed. (Just like when Gulf contries kept sending weapons to Gaza — did that EVER MAKE THE PEOPLE IN GAZA SAFER? No, never. Just perpetuated the conflict by giving them false hope.)

So to support perpetuating yet another “this time is different” war, the proponents of this madness need something stronger, something that will overcome people’s natural resistance to sending more weapons to the region. They start to spout total fictions like “Russia wants to genocide all Ukrainians, restore the Soviet Union, and if we dont stop them they will go and take over all Europe.” Yes those are easily debunked of course, with many independent lines of evidence, and logic. But for some people it doesn’t make a dent. Because if they admit that this is YET ANOTHER PROXY WAR THAT WE COULD HAVE PREVENTED AND CAN EASILY DEESCALATE NOW, then we might just all do that. And then they would be exposed as useful idiots for the military industrial complex, and the war machine that has been destroying countries around the world with zero accountability, and then the next admin says “mistakes were made.”

[mopsi]

> NATO systematically created the conditions for it

This is simply not true. All the Russian propaganda memes of the US forcing Eastern Europe into NATO and so forth that you too rehash are demonstrably false.

> The entire rest of the world outside of NATO blames NATO!

It does not. Representatives from 141 countries of the world at the UN condemned Russia for the war, not NATO or anyone else.

> That’s not saying much but the point is you as a US citizen are the one who can’t bear hearing this about YOUR country.

I am not an US citizen and I don't care about the US-centric whataboutism.

> Most regular people don’t want to kill anyone and don’t endorse endless regime change wars

That's certainly not the case in Russia, where the majority of people continue to support the war with Ukraine.

[EGreg]

> I am not an US citizen and I don't care about the US-centric whataboutism.

Understood. Well now you know how I felt when you keep saying I’m Russian and ascribing views to me that I don’t have.

> This is simply not true. All the Russian propaganda memes of the US forcing Eastern Europe into NATO and so forth that you too rehash are demonstrably false.

Given all the warnings Clinton and Bush ignored from experts, given the aggression NATO has displayed in Yugoslavia and Libya, the refusal to accept Russia, and given the number of bases and the all-but-stated raison d’etre of NATO to have Russia as a geopolitical enemy, I’m pretty sure Russia would not want this organization to surround it with missiles.

Neither would USA want to be surrounded by its geopolitical foes or have them turning their neighbors against them, much less fomenting a revolution. In fact the Monroe Doctrine long ago claimed THE ENTIRE WESTERN HEMISPHERE as a protectorate of the USA, but meanwhile USA went all around the world seeking to turn Russia’s former allies against it.

I just told you that a solid majority of Ukrainians said NO TO NATO but yet NATO persisted. Bush started this meme of Ukraine in NATO. I shared the poll data and mainstream links with you. DATA AND REALITY SHOULD MATTER MORE than repeating the words “Russian propaganda”.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-n...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-ukraine-bush-idUSL01...

Explain thei. Reuters is repeating Russian propaganda? American experts and diplomats predicting war are Russian stooges? Billions of people around the world are Russian assets? Or what?

It does not. Representatives from 141 countries of the world at the UN condemned Russia for the war, not NATO or anyone else.

That was never up for a vote. Show me where the UN was asked to vote on whether they condemn NATO for this conflict, or blame NATO or anything of the sort.

They did even more overwhelmingly blame USA for the 20th year in a row for the Cuba embargo and called for USA to lift it. But USA did not. Do you likewise spend as much time on this for the last 20 years? No. Why this double standard with Russia? I have some pretty good guesses.

That's certainly not the case in Russia, where the majority of people continue to support the war with Ukraine.

You’re just proving my point. The majority of regular Russians did not want to go and kill Ukrainians themselves. Their government and mainstream media had to radicalize them over time and tell them lies (eg that it is overrun with Nazis), just like Ukrainian and US people are told lies by their governments too, and very likely your government tells YOU one sided lies too. (Lithuania and Estonia would gleefully get NATO to fight Russia if they could, just as Castro in the Cuban Missile Crisis mindlessly wanted to instigate USA vs USSR even when neither country was going to be that reckless.)

11 million Russians have family in Ukraine. Those are stories of love. It takes a lot of stories of hate and killing for them to turn on each other.

I am saying that all governments are telling people half truths and the media is radicalizing them for years, highlighting only the bad stuff others did, and with an agenda. And media that doesn’t play along is banned!

The majority of US citizens supported the Iraq war the first yeats (as high as 73%). Why? Same reasons. If I asked people back then why we were attacked on 9/11 they’d say Muslims hate us for our freedoms. You think that was their original thought? Do you truly believe “russia hacked the election” and “unprovoked and unjustified” are original thoughts?

But I will give you credit for something… you have actually cared about polling of the Russian public and their support for the war! Good job, yes polls matter. (Someone here said polls of Indians, Chinese and the entire world don’t matter - some kind of metaphor about people drinking sand.)

I give you credit because some people mindlessly still repeat that this is Putin’s war, one man’s war. And the Russian public is given a pass because they say they are just too afraid to say what they think, or polls are unreliable. They have a fantasy that if Putin is killed or removed then everything would be better.

No, Medvedev and Zhirinovsky and others would have been FAR bigger war hawks than Putin, and really anyone at all including Putin’s greatest liberal critics in Russia would have the same reaction (which you say is totally baseless):

In 2008, Burns, then the American ambassador to Moscow, wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice: “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.”

So we have two options here:

1) Russians are uniquely bloodthirsty orcs who want Ukrainians to be raped and killed

2) The Russian public believes Ukraine in NATO is an existential threat for their country, believes that their leaders have exhausted all peaceful ways to avert this war, and support the war just as US would have supported a war against Cuba in the Cuban Missile Crisis if USSR pumped it full of weapons.