[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

Jeez, how much freaking money are programmers paid in SV that they'd be unhappy earning $191k?

I live in probably the most expensive country on Earth, Norway, and at that wage I could work for 10-15 years, and with some smart, fairly conservative investing, assuming good times in the markets I could easily get retired at 40-45 if I wanted to.

Granted I live and generally prefer a very frugal lifestyle even when I am making good money, but still by my back of the mental napkin estimation I could even have 2 kids, a spouse, house and car and still have a ton of disposable income left over to save/invest.

Is there something I'm missing? Is rent in the valley $80k a year or some bizarro world number?

[eddsh1994]

I pay $3k per month for a 1 bed flat which comes out as 20% of my household income - I don’t feel poor out here with a postdoc wife and my own salary that’s not FANG. Life in a nice part of Palo Alto. The HN bubble is a bubble, I wouldn’t worry about it.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

What's the square footage on that flat, if you don't mind, and is it detached? Just trying to get an idea of the market.

Still ~half my bizarro world number though, hot damn.

[eddsh1994]

750 if I remember right! It’s in what I can only describe as a holiday resort looking apartment block, with a dog park, swimming pool, and fire pit area.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

That actually sounds really nice at that price point.

750 is a pretty damn big one bed(room?) apartment for sure, and with the perks, prime location and presumably high end building standards, the price seems very reasonable. Probably similar to what I'd have to fork out for a much more central apartment in Oslo, at a similar size and standard.

[eddsh1994]

True but Oslo is a real city, Palo Alto is similar to the suburbs. I'm moving to Stockholm in the summer and much prefer the look of housing out there!

[vineyardmike]

> Is there something I'm missing? Is rent in the valley $80k a year or some bizarro world number?

Kinda yea.

The average rent in the bay is around $3500, but for a house that is big enough for a family (eg. 3br, garage, etc) you're probably north of $6k. Don't forget, in America, you have to consider healthcare and other costs that may not be priced equally in Norway. The bay also has more expensive food, gas, and other daily expenses etc than the much of the rest of the US.

For example, I pay ~5k a month for a 2Br unit with a garage, at roughly 1k sqft.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

I guess there's a lot of things I take for granted that Americans have to pay for. I have to pay about $30 for a GP or specialist appt. And about $30 monthly in meds. That's 2 scrips that are completely free and one generic off-label that's completely out of pocket.

And that's it. Overnight admissions to more or less any health institution is completely free of charge(dental care is a whole other ballgame though, it's not socialised very much yet for adults, though slowly getting there). Similarly if I had kids, future tuition would not be an issue since Norwegian universities don't have tuition.

Thinking about it more it wouldn't be possible for me to live as frugally as I do in the US. Not without sacrificing health care.

To put my frugality in context:

Rent is ~$1K/mo(including electricity and fiber internet), which is about 60% of my income(or rather, 60% of 1/12 of what I earned total last year after taxes. It's complicated since I only take short-term consultancies through friends if they look fun. Most of the time I don't work, except on passion projects). That rent gets me a ~50sq. meter basement apartment on the outskirts of oslo, right on the edge of a beautiful river valley in an affluent neighbourhood. Apartment is nice, the juxtaposition of suburb and wilderness is ideal for my outside cat, who has a cat flap and is almost entirely independent if I fill his bowls once or twice a day. I still manage to afford good pet insurance, and a little saving headroom which I split 50/50 into a rainy day fund and fairly risky(but tiny amounts, so it doesn't feel so scary), cheap stocks. 4x so far. I save half my stock returns and reinvest the rest.

I buy dry foods in bulk, perishables at a discount. My annual transportation budget is about $300(public or legs only).

I guess you could say if SVers are in a high cost, high income bubble, I exist in the opposite cut every cent because I like the challenge and I hate working bubble. So I get pretty flabbergasted sometimes when exposed to the numbers floating around the SV bubble.

Mind you Oslo is the most expensive part of Norway in terms of property; I could go rural and probably decimate my rent but I'm too urban for that.

[malborodog]

The entire living arrangement you describe would have to change pretty radically if/when you had a spouse and kids... That's basically the rub with all this.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

True. Luckily for me I have no interest in children or cohabitation!

[tristor]

> Is there something I'm missing? Is rent in the valley $80k a year or some bizarro world number?

I moved from a LCOL where I paid $1200/mo in mortgage + escrow on a 2600sqft 4br house, to a MCOL where I pay $3600/mo in rent for a 1200sqft 3br townhouse. The Bay Area is a HCOL in the US, for a similar property what I have now, it'd be $5k-$6k/mo in rent, plus everything else is also more expensive. Back of napkin, $191k/yr is roughly $128k/yr after taxes, which is roughly $10800/mo after taxes. If rent is $6k/mo, utilities are $400/mo, a car fully laden is $700/mo, and food is $1000/mo, you're left with just $2700, and I'm ignoring significant other expenses. If you have a child (which I do), childcare in SFBA is around $2500/mo, it's around $1800/mo where I'm at now.

Best case scenario, you can save $2k/mo, which puts you ahead of the majority of Americans. You're also renting, which has a continually rising cost which you have no control over. To buy a house you need 20% down to get a traditional mortgage, a typical (for the rest of America) home in SFBA is $3M on the low end, but probably closer to $4M. To save up the $600k you need for a down payment on a $3M house, it'll take 300 months saving $2k/mo, which is TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. So it'll take you 25 years, just to save the down payment so you can get a 30 year mortgage for a house in SFBA on $191k/yr. In 25 years, that $3M house /will/ be at least $5M just due to inflation, which means you're hitting a moving target, if you predict the rise and target it for savings, now you need 500 months or just shy of 42 years to save the /down payment/.

The SFBA is nearly the most expensive place on Earth to live. Norway doesn't even come close.

I make >$300k/yr in an MCOL, I did an analysis and determined if I wanted to move to the SFBA without a massive sacrifice in quality of life for my family, I'd need to earn at MINIMUM $700k/yr to match what we already have, and more realistically closer to $900k/yr. $191k/yr is not even worth considering in SFBA.

EDIT: That said, if this was a remote offering, that's a very decent salary in most of America, and Oxide is a very interesting company with people working there I'd love to work with just so I could be surrounded by their brilliance.

[steveklabnik]

In response to your edit, only about a quarter of the company is in the Bay Area today.

[tristor]

That's great to hear. My comment was more to put into some real numbers the cost of living in SFBA for the grandparent, since they seemed to be under some illusions. In most of the US, that's a very decent salary and would be more than doable, I think in the Bay it's only possible if you already own a home and/or are separately independently wealthy. Which honestly, is fine, more people need to not live in SFBA and live in the rest of the US, even in major cities, which are massively better from a COL perspective.