[markdown]

Concerted efforts by the Tories over decades to defund public health so that they can raise a generation of people who sincerely believe that it's best for the country for the government to get out of Healthcare and leave that to the more efficient private sector.

It's a very slow process that requires first the defunding, then some brainwashing via television. The American model.

[nradov]

The UK NHS budget has been steadily increasing. You can't plausibly claim that the Tories have defunded public health over decades. Some might claim that the funding should have increased at a faster rate, but there are limits to what any society can spend on healthcare.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...

[anonporridge]

It's easier for people to believe in a personified evil with a face that can be hated and a body that can be killed than it is for them to accept that many of our biggest problems are intractable hyperobjects which are simultaneously nobody's fault and everybody's fault.

[lotsofpulp]

I do not think anyone would have a problem with intractable hyperobjects if the King, Prime Minister, and others also had to wait in the same queue at the emergency room.

What people have a problem with is that the problem seems to be tractable for some, and not for others, and whether or not those “some” are worthy of it.

[oigursh]

If the wealthy and connected were forced to access the same services as the rest of us, the services would be better.

[58028641]

Just cause the dollar amount is increasing doesn't mean it isn't being defunded. You have to account for inflation, population size, and population age distribution.

[refurb]

You’d be changing the definition of “defunded” then. It means “less money”.

[Tagbert]

then the term should be "underfunded".

[taylorius]

"...and population age distribution."

Ay, there's the rub.

[0xy]

NHS spending has increased by over 6.5% yearly since 2010, with even more massive increases planned for 2024-25.

Want a comparison? France's healthcare spending increased 0.3% yearly in the same timeframe. The UK is outpacing France's spending increases by 2,066%.

The spending argument is made from political propaganda, not from fact.

[growse]

You can increase more than others and still be funded less than them. The EU on average still spends dramatically more per capita on health.

The spending argument is nuanced and complex. Declaring that it's "not from fact" just reveals your partisan leanings.

https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infogr...

[fidgewidge]

No it doesn't. When private healthcare is included the UK spends about the same.

[geysersam]

> increased by over 6.5% yearly since 2010

Could you provide a source for that? Such an increase would imply a doubling of the budget over that time period. I can't find anything that suggests the NHS budget has doubled since 2010.

From what I can gather, the NHS spending adjusted for inflation increased modestly over the time period.

Taking into account the fact that costs in the healthcare sector have increased more than CPI globally, that increase could well correspond to a decrease in purchasing power.

That doesn't yet take into account the UK specific issues around Brexit.

[markdown]

Tell that to the nurses who have to work ungodly hours to keep the system going.

[petre]

France is still in the EU and has lots of former colonies to extract healthcare workers from. Their cultural diplomacy is one of the best compared to any former European colonialistic power.

[nradov]

What are you saying exactly? How much should spending have increased to account for inflation, population size, and population age distribution? Please give a specific number. Would that be a good use of limited resources?

[LaLaLand122]

Not exactly what you ask for, but "the NHS budget has traditionally risen by an average of 4% above inflation each year." (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64190440)

[nradov]

Obviously NHS funding can't continue growing faster than inflation forever. That is unsustainable. At some point the NHS would consume the entire government budget.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

And also, the population distribution can't continue skewing older indefinitely, that's unsustainable. At some point geriatrics would make up the entire population.

And yet, both of these trends can continue for quite some time, and one trend can outweigh the other for quite some time.

[fidgewidge]

That's the rate which causes people to argue it's being "defunded".

[stuaxo]

At the same time getting rid of the nurses bursary that helped new nurses get trained.

Salaries not increasing with inflation.

Staff finding it harder to stay in the UK after Brexit.

Closure of many hospitals, a gradual move (including the previous gov) to many more privatised services.

All these things have increased costs without improving the service.

[cyclotron3k]

Very interesting. So what's causing the blowout in A&E wait times?

[Jonnax]

More money doesn't just mean better service.

For example, I spoke to a doctor that has to travel between multiple hospitals during the course of their work.

There used to be an in-house service that the NHS owned for transporting medical staff between locations.

That has been privatised as in a contract has gone out for tender and a company won to do the service.

The service used to be reliable. Now they often have to book Ubers out of pocket to get where they need on time.

The inhouse service is gone. So of course and renewals are going to cost more.

When people talk about the deterioration of the service, a common counterargument is that the money being spent is going up as a way to shut down conversation.