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by phphphphp 1193 days ago
I’ll start out by making my position clear: I have a strong aversion to software engineers like you, and I consider software engineers like you to be toxic people who are a drain on organisations. Anyway…

If you approach work as a zero sum game that you’re participating in against your co-workers then you’ll be deeply unhappy wherever you go, and you’ll be a toxic force in the workplace. Work is collaborative, work has a purpose, work is about contributing to the greater good, work is more than the sum of its parts, work is about creating value.

There’s no shame in being someone who doesn’t work well with others, and you’re under no obligation to change, but it’s your responsibility to find an environment where you’re either a positive or at worst, a neutral force. Choosing to work in jobs that make you deeply unhappy is irresponsible and unfair on those around you. If you find working with product managers to be a miserable experience filled with frustration and resentment, then the responsible thing to do is to remove yourself from that situation. Find a job within a company that uses a structure that’s a better fit for you, don’t drag people down.

I won’t preach to you about how important collaboration is, or how much you’re missing out on by operating with this toxic attitude, but I will say that the problems you’re facing have nothing to do with software engineering or product management, they’re human problems.

Running your own software consultancy can be an amazing and rewarding experience that presents new opportunities for growth and new intellectually-stimulating challenges, it’s an experience you may love, but it’s absolutely crucial to understand that human interaction scales with responsibility, and running your own company (even with just yourself) has a lot of responsibility.

I think your final paragraph shows that deep down you know that you’re the cause of these challenges at work. Maybe the problem isn’t work related at all, maybe the frustration at work is a symptom of the real problem, like being unhappy in yourself, maybe the solution is actually therapy or maybe you’re burned out and need a break.

Ultimately, as software engineers, we are very privileged to earn great money and have far more respect / autonomy / trust than most others in the workplace, and so the ball is in your court. If you think your co-workers are the problem, quit. Don’t waste your life stewing in misery, you’re better than that.

3 comments

I always keep it professional, which is also why I feel like I have no choice but to share when I see pitfalls or have a better approach from past experience with seeing exactly what went wrong in similar projects. I have even dealt with people who are hard headed or say things like "fuck the customer" (really) and don't want to listen, and I just preface it with "I know but I just have to say it, it's still your decision what to do". However I've even had it come back around where the thing I warned about came true and since they were in the trusted position they were able to blame the failure on the developers! It's insane how often people will throw you under the bus just to protect their throne of lies.
If you sincerely believe that you’re a shining star being dragged down by your co-workers, get a new job. A software engineer who sincerely cares about the impact of their work on the customer is very valuable and you’ll find happy, positive, kind co-workers at lots of companies who will value you every single day. Don’t waste your life being miserable surrounded by people who drag you down.
Do product manager actually treat software engineers as humans though? It works both ways.

How do you know the OP is toxic? Is it because they are jaded by the amount of times they have told product / architect on the actual implications but have been ignored?

We've lost how things should work.

Is all that matters the design, the idea of a feature or the architecture diagram and ignore everything in practice? Everything sounds good in theory.

I've seen way too many product owners add features without understanding the implications and no 1 from engineer has the power to stop it. When it blows up the engineers get blamed even if they've made enough noise.

If you were building a house, it'd crash and lives would die. Real architects are way more responsible.

Why don't you think about why we've come to this state? There are multiple comments agreeing with the OP and we've all experienced it. The manager considers engineering as a "resource" and whether we're backend, frontend or whatever we're all the same and can do the same work. If there's a crunch just throw more "resources" at it, right?

No! It doesn't work like that.

Man you've drank the coolaide big time. Work isn't about those things, and you should recognize when someone knows something more than you and show some humility. PMs I work with somehow always know the technology better than the people working with it every day. It is amazing!
> you should recognize when someone knows something more than you and show some humility

Funny; this is exactly what I was thinking OP needs to hear.

Everyone probably needs to hear this from time to time, myself included. But you should recognize that the PM probably does not know more about tech that the OP has been working in day in and day out. It is possible they do but unlikely.