[chamakits]

This seems like an inevitability; since eSIMs are already here, and manufacturers are going to be thrilled to have fewer moving parts.

But it’s disappointing all round. I absolutely love how easy it is for me to buy a new phone, swap in my old SIM and I’m instantly using my old number. As painful as transferring everything else is with new phones, at least I easily keep the same number.

With this (and I’d guess with eSIM too) I just have to hope that their process to transfer SIMs work flawlessly. And I have very little confidence in that.

Sidenote: also disappointed this gets published uncritically as if published by the phone manufacturers themselves, celebrating this as a pure positive instead of the trade off it is.

[Reason077]

> "But it’s disappointing all round. I absolutely love how easy it is for me to buy a new phone, swap in my old SIM and I’m instantly using my old number."

In theory, with an eSIM it's even easier to swap in your old SIM because you don't have to deal with the physical SIM card. Especially so if you don't have the physical SIM because it's lost or whatever. In my experience it's super frustrating to have to wait for a new SIM to arrive in the mail because you lost it or the old one is faulty!

Some carriers [1] also support "eSIM Quick Transfer" which allows you to swap eSIMs between devices instantly in the phone's carrier settings, with no need to contact the carrier or deal with their website/software.

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT209096

eSIMs are a massive win when travelling, too. Instantly activate a data plan at cheap local rates in whatever country your travelling to, without having to first get your hands on a physical SIM...

[chris_overseas]

> eSIMs are a massive win when travelling, too. Instantly activate a data plan at cheap local rates in whatever country your travelling to, without having to first get your hands on a physical SIM...

For many years I've owned dual-SIM phones and on many occasions have bought a local SIM a the airport or corner store when travelling for a week or more to countires outside my roaming allowance. This is almost always cheap, usually also easy, but can sometimes be a hassle if it takes a bit of time to track down the SIM.

When I bought my current phone with one physical and one eSIM, I was expecting it to be a huge improvement. The reality so far has been rather different... Twice now I have had to waste a lot of time online shopping around to find an eSIM for the destination country. Most of the international providers are surprisingly expensive (often 10x the cost of a locally bought SIM), have awful websites that look like they were thrown together in a weekend, and they often require you to install their own app to manage the eSIM/account, which is also invariably awful. You're also less likely to have much choice of which network you end up on, which can be a significant issue in less developed countries.

Now that I only have one physical SIM slot and always need it for my home country SIM (my mobile provider doesn't yet even support eSIMs) I regret chosing eSIM over a dual SIM phone. I do expect the situation to improve, but for now at least it still feels like a big step backwards for travel compared to dual SIM.

[Reason077]

I was really thinking of being able to grab an eSIM directly for a local network, rather than one of the "global eSIM providers". You'd just grab your eSIM over WiFi when you land rather than seeking out a physical SIM from an airport vendor.

Obviously it's not the reality that these are easily available in all destinations, yet, but should become more so over time.

[Nextgrid]

There's frankly no reason for a local network to make it easy for foreigners to sign up when they can instead get paid 10x as much in roaming fees if the foreigner stays on their home network instead.

[Reason077]

Sure there is: competition. Why let your competitor network grab those 10x roaming fees when you can grab the 1x yourself? Last time I was in Thailand, vendors at the airport were practically falling over themselves to sell you their SIM card on their network!

Besides, I doubt roaming fees are all that lucrative considering all the "free global roaming" plans there are now days. Those networks that charge crazy per-MB roaming rates are, presumably, keeping most of it for themselves.

[Nextgrid]

Free global roaming is paid by the home carrier - it doesn't necessarily make it free at the visited carrier.

[hooch]

Have you traveled? Mobile vendors at airports and also regular mobile carrier stores will happily sell you an eSIM, not a problem. Scan the QR code and it’s done.

[mFixman]

My experience is very different than yours.

I think you are getting scammed: airport SIMs are way more expensive than actual SIMs you get in town and eSIM you get on an app like Airalo. International providers are obsolete in the age of the eSIM, since you can get a local provider at the click of a button.

eSIMs are still a bit more expensive than physical SIMs you buy in a phone shop far from any airport... but that expense is worth having internet from the second you land.

My only disappointment with this is how hard it is to migrate, but eSIMs work perfectly for travelling.

[lxgr]

> airport SIMs are way more expensive than actual SIMs you get in town

That's definitely not true for many of the places I've visited. Additionally, the airport SIM shops are often the only retailers that know how to register/KYC SIM cards with international passports and/or where the staff speaks English.

[wil421]

I have not traveled out of the country since Covid but the last few times I would just enable an international plan on my carriers account. It was not much more than a local sim and I was able to use my number and everything.

[Symbiote]

How do eSIMs work for identity verification?

The last several times I've bought SIMs outside Europe, I've had to show my passport.

[Gasp0de]

Outside Europe? Identity verification is mandatory in the EU and afaik there are very few states that haven't implemented it in local law (the netherlands and croatia, I think).

[Symbiote]

I haven't bought one in Europe, since I have both registered and anonymous Danish SIMs, and an anonymous British SIM. (They can be bought anonymously in both countries.)

Are you sure it's EU law? I can't find anything on it.

[jaclaz]

No, it is not EU (AFAIK).

Anyway, besides Britain (both before and after Brexit), there is only a handful of countries in EU that do not require ID, among them Denmark:

https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-regist...

most do require it.

[JCharante]

While a local sim is always cheaper than something resold, apps like Nomad make buying a 3-5GB esim in the range of $15-25 super easy. It might cost only $2 for that if you were to buy a local sim in-person, but as long as the cost is not absurd then it's worth the convenience of having internet as soon as the plane lands & while going through the airport without having to rely on the wifi.

[Nullabillity]

10xing the cost is pretty absurd, though...

[throwaway2056]

I think OP is right to note that this gives more control to operator. Unless telecom regulators make moving around easy, most operators will tie device IMEI to eSIM (calling it security) and make it hard to move.

Also you failed to notice, all the custom ROM world (yes, they do exist to avoid dumping tons of money onto bloatware infested phones) will be left out. The operator in my country providing eSIM needs no root/jailbreak etc.

(Sure iPhone users do not care)

> are a massive win when travelling, too

Most people in the world are usually in the same place. From my experience, these business travellers are usually not just rich but also have tons of roaming/data plans.

[izacus]

> In theory, with an eSIM it's even easier to swap in your old SIM because you don't have to deal with the physical SIM card. Especially so if you don't have the physical SIM because it's lost or whatever. In my experience it's super frustrating to have to wait for a new SIM to arrive in the mail because you lost it or the old one is faulty!

In practice however, they can be a customer hating disaster. Some telcos here even charge like 30EUR to generate a new eSIM code when you swap out phones, others need physical visit of their office for the same actions and third throttle the amount of swaps you can make.

All issues that can be severe from normal users (think of a simple case of dropping a phone and breaking it - how much money and time do you need to spend to make a temporary loaner work?)

It's yet another venue how telcos use enshittening to lock in users.

[jaclaz]

Not only, the whole stuff about eSim (and iSim) might be an issue when you have a problem on your hardware (phone):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33121530

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466

[izacus]

Yeah, sometimes the telcos have a self-service portal that gives you a new QR code. However, last time I needed it, my telcos service happily returned 500 so I was left without connectivity.

Also, eSIM backup transfers don't work between brands of Android phones (e.g. from Pixel to Samsung and back).

[kalleboo]

eSIM is good when the carrier does a good job of it, but it's terrible when the carrier does a bad job. There are carriers where any change to eSIM must be called in and you have to talk to a rep, where it takes hours to issue, etc.

Basically we're going back to the USA-style CDMA days where the carrier is in full control of your experience, which worries me.

I agree they're great for the use case of just buying a travel eSIM and activating that.

[World177]

> There are carriers where any change to eSIM must be called in and you have to talk to a rep, where it takes hours to issue, etc.

There's also now the option to just keep your primary phone number on a cheap plan, and have multiple other eSIMs for data usage. There's no longer the problem with having to contact a carrier to switch data plans if used in this way.

Though, hopefully in time they will improve the experience anyway.

[vanilla_nut]

I use Google Fi in the US, which offers (unlimited?) data-only SIMs for no cost in addition to my phone number-associated SIM.

What exactly did eSIM enable here? With dual SIM phones, you can even put one data SIM and one number SIM in a single phone at the same time. Plus it's simple and easy to move either SIM to any other SIM-compatible device at any time.

[World177]

> What exactly did eSIM enable here?

Some examples include

* Backup service in the event that an attacker gains access to your Google Fi account. A backup eSIM with data service for a year has pricing starting at like $2.

* Fast network access in other countries. As far as I know, Google Fi is a carrier in the United States, and does not include network access in other countries.

* Deprioritized on data? The ability to instantly buy a major carrier eSIM and have the data speeds back.

[tssva]

> * Fast network access in other countries. As far as I know, Google Fi is a carrier in the United States, and does not include network access in other countries.

Google Fi offers network access in over 200 countries.

[KennyBlanken]

> In theory, with an eSIM it's even easier to swap in your old SIM because you don't have to deal with the physical SIM card. Especially so if you don't have the physical SIM because it's lost or whatever. In my experience it's super frustrating to have to wait for a new SIM to arrive in the mail because you lost it or the old one is faulty!

"Even easier" until eSIMs become commonplace or the default, and then manufacturers and OS vendors start locking things down. I'm guessing there are few, if any, regulations around eSIMs.

> eSIMs are a massive win when travelling, too. Instantly activate a data plan at cheap local rates in whatever country your travelling to, without having to first get your hands on a physical SIM...

Not without a data connection, you can't. Meanwhile in most of the world you can walk into any bodega and walk out a minute or two later with a SIM that pops into your phone. Hell, in damn near any country you can have a SIM in your phone before you've left the airport.

The push for eSIMs has little to do with "reducing parts counts" or thinner devices, and everything to do with carriers wanting more control over their customers now that they have to unlock people's phones, by law. Right now I can pop a SIM out of a damaged phone, pop it into a new phone. Or buy a temporary plan and swap SIMs when traveling, just by going into any corner market. Even in the US, you can get a SIM damn near anywhere. Supermarkets, convenience stores, bodegas, electronics stores, cell phone shops.

Mark my words, we'll start seeing eSIM transfer fees, locks, policies - all designed to keep people from participating in a free market for cell phone services. Probably mandatory app installation, too - and of course the apps will demand a ton of permissions for things like "fraud prevention", when really they just want to snarf even more of your data.

[Reason077]

> "The push for eSIMs has little to do with "reducing parts counts" or thinner devices, and everything to do with carriers wanting more control over their customers"

And yet, it's the phone manufacturers who are pushing eSIMs. Many carriers seem resistant to rolling them out! Why? If anything, it's because the opposite is true: eSIMs make it easier to switch providers, by eroding the barrier of having to first acquire a physical SIM card in order to switch.

> "Mark my words, we'll start seeing eSIM transfer fees, locks, policies - all designed to keep people from participating in a free market for cell phone services."

I think if that were to happen in Europe, we'd quickly see a regulatory response from the EU (if it isn't illegal already).

[gambiting]

I have two sims in my phone, neither carrier even supports eSIMs yet. The technology is extremely slow to roll out around the world for some reason.

[World177]

I think the carriers probably do not like it, as it allows their customers to easily switch service. I also think it could possibly be part of the reason Apple released an eSIM only phone, as it forces the carriers to use eSIMs.

[masklinn]

> it allows their customers to easily switch service.

It’s not like switching is difficult even with a physical SIM.

[World177]

It was really inconvenient to switch to an MVNO or another carrier. You almost always had to order a SIM and wait a week for it to be shipped. Right now, I can activate an eSIM and be using the plan within like 10 minutes. I also am able to continue using my current plan.

In my current setup, I have a plan with primary carrier for my primary number, then a backup data only eSIM with non-expiring data for if I'm SIM swapped or overuse my data plan on my primary plan. I've actually tried and used different MVNOs.

[trollied]

It can be made difficult if you want to keep your number. Years ago I worked for a startup mobile operator. The incumbents didn't like the new threat, and did all sorts of shenanigans to stop growth, things like paying people to object to new cell sites etc. One of these things was releasing ported numbers on the last possible day. So, while you had your new device and SIM card, you didn't yet have your old number. The old operators legally had 30 days to release/transfer the old number, and would wait for 29 days before doing so. You'd be surprised at the amount of contract cancellations this would cause, with the customer thinking it was the new operator being useless. The legislation ended up being changed to a more reasonable timeframe because of this anti-competitive behaviour.

[Nullabillity]

What does that have to do with the physical SIMs, though?

[jonathanlydall]

Can't speak for the rest of the world, but in South Africa mobile service providers will let you do eSIMs for things like Apple Watches, but not for anything else.

I think this is because it's common for them to offer "data only" SIMs which have far lower rates than data on a SIM card which can do both data and voice. Typically these data only SIMs are made available just for mobile WiFi hotspots. My suspicion is that not generally offering eSIMs is about protecting this business practice.

I don't know anyone who likes any of the mobile companies here, people just use whoever they feel is the least intolerable.

[franga2000]

> Some carriers [1] also support "eSIM Quick Transfer"

See, that's the problem right there: your carrier is the one who enables and allows you to do this. With physical SIM cards, all you need is a thin pointy thing and two fingers - no software, no cloud services, no network connection.

[r1ch]

> eSIMs are a massive win when travelling, too

My experience with this was very disappointing. I decided to buy an eSIM at the airport while my friend opted for a physical SIM. He was done in 30 seconds, meanwhile I was struggling to find an open Wi-Fi network since provisioning apparently requires internet access. Then my device took almost 5 minutes "setting up" before I was online. Until an eSIM can be provisioned without internet access I don't see how it's a better experience than a physical SIM.

[vanilla_nut]

Great point. I'd love to see eSIMs managed via an open standard over NFC, phone-to-phone or POS-to-phone to "simulate" the transferability of physical SIMs without the tiny piece of plastic.

But until then, I'm avoiding eSIMs entirely. I used to have a CDMA Verizon iPhone back in the day, and every time I switched to or from it (it eventually became my backup phone) I had to call Verizon to beg them to move my number between phones. Slow, annoying, and error-prone: I ended up with no usable phone more than once.

And now a lot of carriers are charging $15-30 "activation fees" in the US every time you set up an eSIM on a phone. No thank you.

[jen20]

Hopefully this will fall under the junk fee act proposed by Biden. Telcos are among the worst offenders and deserve nothing less than corporate euthanasia.

[numpad0]

What you have described is an “artist’s impression” diagram but not how it works IRL. Having physical SIM removes the requirement of the entire phone having to be a certified malware proof secure device, which is hard and a bit anti-consumer.

[usrusr]

Just imagine how nice things could be if physical SIM also doubled as a trust enclave for all your TFA etc needs that could be easily transferred to a new device, survive through OS reinstalls and so on.

[numpad0]

That was kind of tried with public transit/FeliCa but didn’t seem to work. For whatever reasons, even VISA is more comfortable with phone integrated secure element for payment, it seems. Maybe the way it is is less eggs in similar baskets.

[wkat4242]

It's great if they make it easy but it also gives them lots of control to make things difficult if they want to. With physical SIMs they don't have this option short of blacklisting unknown IMEIs which would cause them a huge support burden.

I like the idea of eSIM but this quick transfer should be mandatory, not an option.

[mort96]

> In theory, with an eSIM it's even easier to swap in your old SIM because you don't have to deal with the physical SIM card.

But dealing with the physical SIM card is the thing that's easy. People already know how to move a physical thing from A to B. Figuring out how to electronically transfer an electronic SIM is necessarily less easy, even if we lived in a fantasy world where operators all cooperated to try to make it as easy as possible to switch to a competitor (heh).

[officeplant]

iPhone 13 user in the US here. ESIM's have been both nice and a complete pile of shit. Not a single prepaid service I've tried supports transferring ESIMs between iPhones yet. Instead of just moving a physical SIM between phones I'm stuck in a webchat line for 30-45 minutes waiting for a rep to help move the eSIM. It's especially frustrating when you juggle phones for testing purposes.

Even worse I ran into an issue lately where a carrier I thought about moving too but decided not to accidently ported my number to their service. (in store error). Which left me unable to even dial carrier services, something you can usually do with a SIM still in the phone.

On the plus side, I needed emergency phone service after my phone number was stolen, and I was able to get on public wifi and buy prepaid service with a new prepaid company and register an ESIM in minutes since it was an all new line.

ESIMs have their benefits, but between ESIMs and VoLTE whitelisting it really feels like US carriers are trying to drag us back to the shitty old days of cell service lock-in and carrier phones. None of which usually hurt people with flag ship devices, only people hunting for budget unlocked solutions they can drop any SIM card in and go.

[cjdoc29]

I'm replying to your post since so many replies to you mention their positive/negative experiences but leave out the most important part - what country they've visited.

[MisterSandman]

I feel like this is gearing up to bring back contracts or phone locks, in a way. A family member recently bought an iPhone from the US to a non-US country, without realizing that the US models are eSim-only. They have to change carriers because only the fancy, expensive carriers offer eSim. I would not be surprised if they find other ways to make it harder to install an eSim in a different carriers phone.

Also, another thing I hate about having an eSim is that it sorta forces you to install your carriers app, which for some cheap/mid-tier carriers is an ad-infested mess.

[ezfe]

I've travelled with my eSIM and switched carriers domestically. I've also switched phones. Here are some samples of why it doesn't have to be a problem:

- AT&T makes transferring iPhone - to - iPhone trivial; offers to transfer automatically during setup

- Visible provides an example of a simple app that can install an eSIM on your new device without talking to a customer support rep or waiting for something to come in the mail;

- The previous also applies when moving between competitors - means one can switch carriers in an hour from your living room

- Traveling to Greece with the Airalo eSIM app was trivial to set up (open app, search country, pick data package) and while I'm sure I paid more than I could've if I'd found a local physical SIM, I was able to set it up before leaving the US so it worked instantly the moment we landed, and the app made it easy to track data usage and reload if needed without phone calls or local apps.

[kahnclusions]

With eSIM when I buy a new phone I just open my provider’s app on my old phone and request a new SIM, then scan a QR code on the new phone and bam my new phone is setup using the same phone number.

You can have multiple eSIMs on the device and activate them when you need… for example travel SIM, or a SIM for your home country, etc. It’s way more convenient than physical SIM cards.

[kuschku]

You can have multiple physical SIMs with any reasonable phone as well. It's only the handful of US flagship phones that removed that support (just as they removed headphone jacks or microSD slots)

[godzillabrennus]

SIM cards were never swappable for me. They were locked to a phone. Changing to a new handset meant going to the carriers store or having them ship me one. I welcome the ease of portability that eSIM brings.

[LeoPanthera]

This feels like an American perspective. In Europe (and Asia too?), sim-swapping is pretty seamless, and relatively common.

[jraph]

There's also the simlocking.

In France, (many/all?) phones bought from the carriers (with a subscription with some time commitment) were (are?) simlocked, meaning that they could only accept SIMs from these carriers. But carriers are also forced by law to let you sim-unlock your phone for free after a few months. So yes, pretty seamless and common indeed. Everybody expects to be able to switch carriers and keep their phones.

[vel0city]

Not an inherently American perspective. I've been able to swap SIM cards between devices in the US using both large and small carriers since the 90s in the US.

[eloisant]

In France for example SIM cards where a thing since cellphones exist, however I've lived in Japan and US in the 2000s and in both countries there was no SIM, you had to go through your carrier to change phones and they would setup your phone in the shop.

[Daz1]

Not in Japan. Some carriers like Docomo you can't even buy a standalone SIM.

[kalleboo]

Not true https://onlineshop.smt.docomo.ne.jp/sim-card/index.html

I'm on docomo and I only have a SIM from them, I brought my own iPhone from abroad. When I turned my iPhone in to Bic Camera to have the display swapped, I could just swap my SIM into a spare old phone quickly and it worked seamlessly.

[Daz1]

Oh that's good, I went into one of their branches and they told me it wasn't possible and I'd have to buy a phone from them. Probably just pushy salespeople trying to meet quota.

[zamnos]

Hmm but if they're locked to a phone for you, what's preventing phone companies from doing the same thing with esims?

[secondcoming]

In order to test various 5G offerings, I have 3 SIM cards at the moment. All are freely swappable between my phone and my 5G router.

[elzbardico]

International plans are less expensive than they were in the past, and usually, with decent carriers, they can be enabled and disabled on demand from their customer app. Conversely, eSIM has the advantage that a thief can't simply remove the SIM after stealing your phone.