> 9000 people who make products that suck should do something else with their lives.
So you not liking some products isn't just grounds for you not using a product, isn't just grounds for telling other people not to use the product, it's grounds for everyone working at the company that makes that product, related to it or not, to be fired.
That's one hell of a leap from your opinion to ideas about what's best for the world.
I'm not sure if you're referring to my comment or to parents'. (Not a good sign for my comment I guess :|).
But just FYI that complaining about HN going the way of Reddit is very frowned upon here (if not outright against the rules, I don't remember.)
It's also fairly unoriginal - people have been complaining that HN is becoming Reddit since HN was created, more or less. We're talking a good 10+ years of this complaint.
I think you’re confusing your opinion with reality, the truth is Jira (I presume this is your real complaint?) is fine and works well enough for most people they can just get on with it.
I'm actually okay with Jira. I can't understand why they don't address performance, but I can roll with it because its not that abysmal. I honestly haven't seen something much better out there so it is what it is. It's confluence that I absolutely hate, thats where the performance and generally sad state of the UX gets to me. Bitbucket is even worse, but I had forgotten about its existence until recently because the company I now work for uses that clunky POS. There are good alternatives to those products, but somehow companies get roped into that garbage because they are already using Jira.
How can Atlassian have all that staff and such shit products?
Edit: I know the answer because I've been a company that did all of this. Build new shit and don't focus on the main product, then lay off your staff.
I frankly don't understand how people come to like confluence. It's completely unintuitive to navigate, and the main way of avoiding the need for navigation- search- is completely broken as well. It frequently just does not find articles I know are there- I've habitually searched for the title of a page I needed without realising it's the one I was on, and confluence search told me it didn't exist! It's a pain to work with.
Bitbucket is just entirely forgetful, I'm not surprised you have. I found it slow and cumbersome to use.
I'll add another highlight to the atlassian experience: their CI product, bamboo. Also very cumbersome to use. To give one example, if you are debugging a pipeline and want to run just some tests, you have to individually navigate to each test's page and settings subpage to click it on or off- so with a healthy number of tests, you'll really start to notice those slow page loads! (I recommend automating this task with selenium).
I personally dislike jira, but as they say: democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Okay, we can quibble about the exact qualification. But I, like many others, am often quite upset about all sorts of stupid inefficiencies of Jira, and, to give a nod to a sibling thread: Bitbucket even more so. Now, you say "fine", I say very mediocre. And the thing with developers and their tooling is that we're often quite spoiled such that this mediocrity just doesn't sit well with us. In a lot of places, there is choice such that we can pick the most efficient, non-mediocre tools for our taste. But Jira is just such a de-facto industry standard, that there's less tolerance for shopping around, and many of us get stuck with it.
If you're in a sluggish enterprise, and you're conditioned to sit on the phone for a change request, or wait a minute and a half for your IT website to load, sure, Jira may be a breath of fresh air. But for a lot of us, Jira is the IBM of project management: no one got ever fired for buying it, but few people are happy with it either.
You never had the pleasure of working on Yahoo!’s extremely customised bugzilla install I’m guessing. Once you used that you’d think Jira was pretty great and well optimised!
I have worked at Sluggish Enterprise™, which I was referencing. I had the luxury of moving on. So, I understand that you can always come across worse, but that doesn't absolve Atlassian, now does it :)
Some people are ok with mediocre, and that too is "fine", but you're right, Atlassian products are shite, they persist because of their ubiquity not because anyone I know or have ever worked with wants to use them.
Thankfully, they told industries like mine to go fuck ourselves when they discontinued the self-hosted options, and thanks in part, to COVID, there has been a lot of competition growing lately for developer tools like these.
is there maybe some jiraisactuallynotbad.com place where I could read on how people use jira as a tool and get stuff done? All I see are rage posts and sites that roast jira, bordering on rage hate that systemd was getting.
whenever i try and use jira to get things done, it is genuinely bad tool.
As an example, low priority issue that blocks high priority issue is not automatically promoted. This single thing makes jira unfit for its primary purpose in my eyes
That's perfectly configurable in 5 minutes with an automation.
Jira out of the box doesn't make your company suddenly more productive. Just like Office 365 doesn't magically work. You need good governance, administration / configuration and proper training to make it generate added value.
No it is not. It is perfectly solvable by dedicated specialist that has long time experience maintainig jira, knows how to interact with jira api, has budget to by licenses for third party plugins that implement such basic functionality etc.
If you ask "normal" it person to do this, i'd like to see those 5 minutes
It's really nice to have an alternative to github.
Say what you want about bitbucket, but people have been banned from github for pretty fickle reasons, so it's nice that they can still host repositories somewhere else for free.
I'll say it, it sucks and its slow. The company I started at recently uses it and I hate it so much. Scrolling through a PR, viewing comments in a PR, adding comments in a PR, its all so clunky and GH Actions destroys BB pipelines. It's crap.
But it's good to have competition. Can you imagine if there was only one cell phone provider? Even a subpar competitor in the space can prevent people from being held captive. If bitbucket didn't exist, Microsoft might start charging users per repo for all we know
I have many a times shouted at my computer over the stupidity that is Bitbucket. And I honestly cannot believe or understand that people at Atlassian are using it themselves. I hate the term dogfooding, but how often do these people have to walk into the same walls that I walk into, before they go and improve a thing?
Sure, I get it, they're working on enterprise features that make them (more) money. But then don't have the audacity to present me an NPS survey to see how incredibly happy I am with their product. Ugh.
Do you run GitHub enterprise on prem? I'm curious because I'm always surprised when I see companies that haven't banned Microsoft server GitHub. Seems like a massive risk.
We are in IT business for God sake. We make crap ton of money, we can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and the market is still undersaturated by a lot.
Obviously loosing job always sucks, but this social movement of caring about workers who were let go was meant to be about poor, low skill laborers with no viable alternative in sight, not heckin programmers lmao
> We are in IT business for God sake. We make crap ton of money, we can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and the market is still undersaturated by a lot. Obviously loosing job always sucks, but this social movement of caring about workers who were let go was meant to be about poor, low skill laborers with no viable alternative in sight, not heckin programmers lmao
I don't think all or even most programmers are in a position to just willy nilly dance out of a job and find one the same or better. When I quit my last job it took months of planning. It took 3-5 round difficult interviews with 10 different companies to find the one I wanted to be at. That took a little over three months total.
Never said you can just willy nilly dance, but you won't be walking hungry, even if you might need to get out your comfort zone and god forbid work in PHP for a few months.
Compare that to people who work minimum wage, have no education and are barely keeping things together- them loosing a job and You loosing a job is just worlds apart of a difference
Yeah, I still don't agree with this. Skills become irrelevant, worker burnout and churn in tech is high, geocentralization and the requirement to move are also detrimental, the requirement to live in vastly expensive cities with reasonable commutes generally puts a higher risk level on any savings, and lastly, not all tech workers are married to other high income earners, which I feel like these privilege statements are designed to ignore.
Maybe they should work someplace better. It's like people saying the American automakers should have been bailed out just to save all the jobs: if those companies had been left to die, other automakers would have taken over their marketshare and expanded operations, hiring the unemployed workers and probably buying up a lot of factories, support companies, etc.
Keeping a shitty company alive with bad management in place just for the workers isn't good for the market in general.
Disclaimer: I'm just arguing the general principle here. I don't have any strong opinions on Atlassian.
The other point of view is that the industry would have been entirely off shored. I think this is particularly a concern in tech, where US workers are notably spoiled even in comparison to the rest of the US. That wasn't the case with the auto workers to the same extent and so people were more sympathetic.
I'd imagine everybody in tech gets told to fuck off pretty rudely if it ever gets to the point of bailouts, so the good news is that your concern is unfounded.
>The other point of view is that the industry would have been entirely off shored.
No, it wouldn't have. The ownership might have, but that's ok. Lots of great cars are built in the USA, by American workers, by companies like BMW and Honda and Toyota. If GM had been allowed to die, that would have simply meant more foreign-brand-owned factories in the US.
Why do you care so much about the nationality of the top execs?
The better way than to waste everyone's time with comments like this is to start a company that competes. I bet you don't get very far. If you do, good for you, maybe you'll have a company in 20 years that people on hacker news says "Keeping a shitty company alive with bad management in place just for the workers isn't good for the market in general." while you roll in your gold sheets at night.
Does that mean they will lose their jobs? Yes.
It's still the best outcome for the world and those people will get other jobs, hopefully making better products.