[bslatkin]

Great examples. Another question that leads to frustration is "can I use my existing code editor for this"? People are turned off when the answer is "no"

[taeric]

What examples force not using an editor? Many have a "natives use this" choice, but few lock you to it.

[bslatkin]

Some parentheses languages are much easier to use if you're familiar with a structural editor, for example.

[taeric]

All languages are easier that way, though? My kids learning python are best with a ton of hand holding. Affordances that show the structure are huge.

[bslatkin]

Agreed that seeing structure is important. I mean operating on it at a higher level like https://calva.io/paredit/

[taeric]

This makes sense, but I don't think that is at all required for working in lisp and friends. Just as many refactoring tools are not required to get started. Certainly useful if you get running with them.