[cwkoss]

Cashback on credit cards is really just a rebate on the CC fees that are baked in to all prices. It's still a net economic loss for consumers, just not as bad as if you weren't taking advantage of that.

Credit cards only seem like a good deal to consumers because it is hard to reason about n-th order economic effects. The profits these companies make are ultimately coming from all of our wallets.

[patmcc]

It's a net economic loss for consumers as a class, sure. That doesn't mean it's a loss for each individual consumer.

I'm not against lowering CC fees. But the idea that they're just rent seeking is very silly.

[cwkoss]

Yeah, I'm aware of "churning". AFAIK its only possible to beat the system by taking advantage of many temporary offers in series and distorting your spending to get the 'free' value offered by their featured partners. i.e. you can only beat the system to the extent that you value airline miles and gift cards as their cash equivalents.

[patmcc]

I'm not even talking about churning, though that can be a thing too.

I need to use something for purchases, and each method of payment has pros and cons. Even if using a credit card had a visible 2% additional cost, I'd use it on certain transactions. If I'm dealing with a vendor I might not trust to do a refund, a cc lets me do a chargeback. If I'm concerned about holding large amounts of cash, a cc lets me limit my risk exposure. If I don't have the cash currently, a cc give me an interest-free advance until the statement due date (between 20-40 days in the future).

We can certainly argue about whether those things are worth 1% or 3% or .02%, but they're worth something to consumers.