[derekja]

I was at MSFT for a decade or so and several times saw folks who turned down the first offer get a second offer that was much more to their liking. The hiring manager has to really want you in order to push back sufficiently with HR, but if you're unhappy with the offer and willing to risk losing the job I've seen it pay off...

[patio11]

willing to risk losing the job

In almost all cases, the original offer is still on the table. "Negotiating with the decisionmaker will cost me this offer, so don't negotiate" is something which is only really believed by engineers who are -- and I say this with love -- abominably incompetent at negotiation. This is regrettable, since skill at negotiation matters a whole heck of a lot more than skill with Chef or mastery of Postgres trivia for determining both the instant results of the negotiation and one's larger career trajectory.

Still working on that blog post on negotiation, should be up early Monday for more elaboration on this.

[xiaoma]

As someone who's been on the other side of the table (in multiple businesses), I really can't agree. In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly, and especially in start-ups and small businesses, cost is a major concern. In larger businesses or governmental organizations, HR regulations and bureaucracy become a major factor.

I've personally filtered out dozens if not hundreds of otherwise qualified people due to salary concerns without a second thought. In two cases within the last six months I've seen the party who pushed for a higher salary reach out again only to find the position filled.

My guess is that you've never experienced an employer's market. It may not be one in silicon valley, but it is for most engineers around the world. Being a white guy in Japan, and then a guy with a popular blog following, you've had a far, far different experience than a typical engineer.

[tptacek]

It is not an employer's market for talent in any place that needs talent.

You're probably right that line-of-business developers at Fortune-100 insurance companies on the east coast have a harder time than SFBA devs. But don't overgeneralize: in software companies in the US, it is a seller's market for talent.

So, two specific responses:

(1) You can in general safely push back on the first offer from any company --- this practice is so time-honored that it gets a chapter in _What Color Is My Parachute_, which is among the most anodyne sources of career counseling out there. Hiring managers, even at office furniture companies in Grand Rapids Michigan, are prepared for you to reject the first offer, and they've deliberately calibrated their first offer to deal with that.

(2) Technology companies everywhere will in 2012 go out of their way to work through salary negotiation. It doesn't matter if you're in SFBA, Seattle, Austin, Chicago, or Cleveland: if they're hiring for talent (ie, if they're actually a tech company), you're not going to spook them. Wherever they are, they have gotten used to the idea that candidates hold the cards and are likely at any point to decide to relo to Mountain View to work for 1.5x as much as you can pay them.

[xiaoma]

I never mentioned the US. I'm in Beijing and absolutely flooded with resumes from hard-working, talented people.

Before you automatically write off all of China (as well as India and other nearby countries), consider that engineering is moving at a rapid pace here. Not only are some internet companies ahead of western counterparts (e.g. free to play gaming models), but there's simultaneously a boom in materials engineering, medical devices and clean-tech.

I realize that the US is particularly insulated from the market realities, due to a difficult immigration system amongst other things. I can't really comment much on the specifics. But those sorts of distortions don't don't generalize to the entire world, and they won't last forever.

[rmc]

In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly

It depends. As another data point, I've applied for jobs where the job advert was from 6 months ago. There is a shortage of IT talent, this company had been waiting 6 months. They can afford to wait a few weeks more.

[derekja]

It's hard in a big company in that the decision maker is really the hiring manager, but HR protocol gets in the way. So if the prospective hire is unhappy with the offer they have to formally decline it and then the hiring manager has to come back at HR to get them to tender a better offer. Things can happen in that process - other candidates, having to change leveling to reach the desired offer, etc. If your decision maker is the one actually in charge of the whole process then I absolutely agree that there is no downside to negotiating. Look forward to your blog post!