[e_i_pi_2]

For a measured response - yes I agree, it's a combo of luck and effort, but the effort can't compensate for the luck.

For my true response that probably isn't as popular - he may have an amazing work ethic but that's also just coming from how he was raised, so it's still luck, the same person born in a different environment wouldn't have done the same things - both nature and nurture are external forces

[WalterBright]

Geez, I've been told I have an unfair advantage because I have a predilection for working hard.

At what point should people stop making excuses and claiming to be a victim?

[rxhernandez]

It's funny how you say you have a natural ability to do great things while simultaneously saying that people should stop making excuses and just gain your natural ability.

And I'm not someone who is a stranger to hard work; most of my loved ones have complained with great sadness for years that I work way too hard.

In my experience, most of us hard workers didn't spend years training ourselves to work hard; we just wake up, work hard, and wonder how the hell the past decade of our lives just slipped through our fingers without any meaningful memories besides work.

[WalterBright]

LOL, my dad told me many times that I was not afraid of hard work, as I would lie down and go to sleep next to it.

[jounker]

It’s amazing how hard the majority of poor people work. If effort was all that counted then the slums of the world would be overflowing with billionaires.

[WalterBright]

> It’s amazing how hard the majority of poor people work.

I've pontificated over and over here that it isn't really about working hard, it is about working smart. I.e. choosing the right things to work on. Digging a hole and filling it in again is hard work, but it isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

However, it does take some effort. Upgrading your job skills is a common way to work smarter.

[ookdatnog]

So it comes down to being smart again, which is largely outside of your own conscious control. That means we're back to being lucky again, no?

[WalterBright]

How much smarts does it take to realize that improving ones' job skills is a way to improve one's life?

[ookdatnog]

What exactly do you mean with "improving one's job skills"? What can a janitor do to improve their job skills? Learn to code in their free time? I have no idea what exactly you're suggesting.

[ForHackernews]

You could just admit the just-world hypothesis is false and enjoy your good fortune. That would be the gracious thing to do.

But yes, seething on message boards is another common response to finding out you're part of luckiest 0.01% of people in the history of mankind.

[Frondo]

What is the point of this? Who are these people who are making excuses and claiming to be victims -- and victims of what?

If there is a grievance you're making, can you elaborate on that?

[Xenoamorphous]

I certainly wouldn't phrase it that way, but the best software developer I've met was not only very smart but really passionate about software. Like, _really_ passionate. His entire online persona revolves around it, and in person you could surely talk to him about other topics, but you could tell software stuff was his preferred one.

So he worked really hard, but he was _enjoying_ it to the point it wasn't really a chore to him. Others who are not so passionate about stuff can and will work hard towards some goal, but it will absolutely be a chore to them.

So I think the guy I'm talking about is lucky, or gifted, or whatever you want to call it, compared to others.

On the other hand, at some point I guess it becomes an addiction? For example I, like most, enjoy sex, and having sex a few times per week is great and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you _must_ have it 5 times per day maybe you have a problem.

[tzs]

I wonder sometimes what effect all this has on young smart kids.

Image two kids who show an interest in science or engineering and show some talent in those areas. One is a white kid from a well off community, and one is a Black kid from a less well off area.

The Black kid is going to be told several things, all of which are true. There is significant systematic racism in the US and the kid will find it affecting him. His school won't be as good as those in better off areas. His family won't be able to afford extracurricular activities that would help make up for the poor school.

If people are not careful in how they tell the kid those things, it would be easy for the kid to get the idea that the odds are too stacked against him and give up on pursuing science or engineering.

The white kid, on the other hand, might have his accomplishments partly or wholly dismissed as due to his better school, his family having more money, and his not having to deal with racism. That too could easily convince a kid to not bother. If everything you do is dismissed as just the inevitable outcome of things you were given and not as something you accomplished, then screw it...why not just spend your time playing games or on social media or partying?

[bloqs]

Personality psychometrics are well established and more scientific than people realise. You likely have a high nature and nurtue tilt towards trait Conscienciousness (OCEAN model), which is largely in part due to your experience of life before the age of six

[chongli]

I have no problem working hard. I can grind for hours on a problem when I’m engaged with it.

My problem is constant distraction. It’s really bad. And blocking out everything else doesn’t help. I even get distracted by the thing I’m working on. I’ll see something new and go off and research that.

From everything I gather, we’re living in a pandemic of distraction. I think people had a lot easier time focusing on their tasks before the internet came along.

[noir_lord]

Wouldn’t worry about it much.

If they want to claim that then let them, doesn’t hurt you or me.

There are enough legitimate victims around, we don’t have a shortage alas.

[ask_b123]

At all points.

A predilection for making excuses is a disadvantage so you should excise it from your character/personality.

[pasquinelli]

what do you care what people say? let them make excuses, what's it to you?

[jacobr1]

It matters where you set the achievement bar. Sure, if the goal is "internationally recognized expert," perhaps luck is a stronger factor.

But if the goal is, "strong enough programmer to write a spell-check algorithm from first principles," then work-effort might very well compensate for a lack of advantages in upbringing or other "luck-factors."

[rxhernandez]

Yeah, if you completely ignore people who are born in destitute and corrupt countries. How is someone supposed to gain access to a computer when they can't even feed themselves?

[l33t233372]

And that’s not even to mention how lucky he is to not have been born 100 years ago!

The point here is that going to such extremes isn’t really interesting.

[rxhernandez]

They are pretty interesting because it establishes limits from which you can work to understand the validity of your model (idk about you but that's how I was trained to create models in my physics degree).

I mean, from there you can move on to similar cases where bad luck trumps any amount of ability. For example, what sucks about being impoverished? Not having good access to a computer, right? From there it's not hard to draw on other things (e.g. abuse, bad culture, poverty) that make having good computer access a huge challenge. It becomes pretty apparent that luck plays a huge factor in success.

Pretty interesting to me.

[l33t233372]

It’s obvious, but uninteresting to consider the extent to which luck factors into success.

[rxhernandez]

So obvious that a lot of successful people here think they did it all on their own with very little luck involved. So obvious that there is an entire political party whose foundation is built around, "if I could do it, so can you."

[Oxidation]

As Stephen Jay Gould said: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops."

[LoRaBlood]

I don't think his work ethic comes from his upbringing - our parents didn't push us that hard and my work ethic is average. It may come from the fact that he found what he loves to do early in his career, it may come from my Dad's genes (his work ethic was pretty good), or a combo of both

[navane]

If he is halve the genes given to him, halve what his environment has given to him, does he even exist? Do any of us exist?

[chii]

Only if you conflate the meaning of your own existence with the achievements you make.

[bruce343434]

we exist as water in a river