[overthemoon]

I've wrestled with this since I graduated in '08 with an English degree from a shit school and far, far too much debt. Still, you can't put a price on what I learned. My thinking changed fundamentally. The world opened up. It's a rich field, connected to history, politics, philosophy, and more. I had wonderful professors and the epiphanies I had in their classes I will cherish forever. Life without art is not really life.

After I graduated, I was in so much debt I became suicidally depressed. I thought my future was over. (I ended up learning to program and got a job doing that, instead.) The outlook that reduces education in the abstract to its ROI is bleak; the refusal to descend into the real world and consider the economics of education is naive and useless.

I've given a lot of thought about what I'll advise my son to do, assuming he listens to me. It's true that he could always read any books in his free time, but that would leave out the discussion, writing, and instruction, which are indispensable. I do NOT want him going into a horrible amount of debt for it, or miss out on a career that will actually support him. But I want so much for him to have something like the mental and cultural enrichment I got to have, whose effects are hard to even explain because they've touched every part of my life. I don't have an answer yet.

[owlglass]

I'd like to add my experience. I did a year of English in university, then switched to a software engineering major after internalizing all the "an English degree is useless" rhetoric.

While I am glad I didn't spend the ~$32,000 CAD it would have cost to get an English degree, I do wish I'd enrolled in a CS/English double major to get the benefits of technical studies and a humanities education. I have realized that, while I like software, a corporate job is just a means to an end to what I really enjoy: shared experience and art.

On another note, I did make the mistake of paying $15,000 CAD/year for a software engineering degree compared to $8,000/year for a CS degree. Now, in my final year, I'm taking many of the same classes CS students take. I would warn anyone in the same position in Canada (or the US) to seriously compare the two curricula when making a decision.

[horsawlarway]

> On another note, I did make the mistake of paying $15,000 CAD/year for a software engineering degree compared to $8,000/year for a CS degree. Now, in my final year, I'm taking many of the same classes CS students take. I would warn anyone in the same position in Canada (or the US) to seriously compare the two curricula when making a decision.

I find this interesting, at least at the school I attended, there was no difference in pricing between degrees like this. Almost all of the computer related programs are just included under a BS (bachelor of science) and covered by normal tuition.

There were certainly focus differences between something like Computer Engineering vs Computational Media vs Electrical and Computer Engineering, but the prices were the same, and many of the core classes were the same.

[roncesvalles]

The "software engineering" degree only exists because the Faculty of Engineering didn't want to miss out on the firehose of demand for CS degrees in the last couple of decades that went to the Faculty of Science. Effectively though, "software engineering" is just a parallel CS program taught by the Faculty of Engineering.

[owlglass]

As far as I understand, universities' reasoning for differential tuition varies from demand for a particular major, projected earning potential, and the cost of providing the major itself (for example, a civil engineering student requires all the material and facilities for their labs and field courses).

In Canada, this differential pricing between engineering and other majors is applied to all engineering disciplines, which is why software ends up with a higher cost than computer science, despite there being very few tangible differences in the curricula.

In my opinion, a model like that of your school's is much more reasonable, given that many of the core classes are the same.

[dml2135]

This is about where I'm at. I was an art major and spent my time working in contemporary art until switching careers to programming via a bootcamp in my 30s.

If I could go back and do it all again, I don't think I would a CS major instead, even when taking the massively increased earning potential I would have had I entered the field straight out of college. My humanities classes gave me so much historical perspective on the world that shapes my outlook today, and I simply can't imagine living without that.

I also credit my humanities education with teaching me how to do research and "how to learn". I think it gave me a lot of the skills I used to teach myself coding and switch careers. I'm not certain it would have been as easy to do it the other way around -- learn CS in college and teach myself humanities later.

[jwestbury]

I went to a well-regarded state school, thus graduated with less debt, but I'm in the same boat -- graduated with an English degree in 2008, having decided after a year of computer science classes that it wasn't for me. I started university a self-important ass, and the English program forced me outside my comfort zone repeatedly, leaving me a very different, much more open-minded person than I started as.

I somehow found my way back into tech, and have spent a decade across several well-regarded tech giants and now a hedge fund. Throughout that journey, I've received consistent praise for my soft skills, which have generally surpassed those of my peers, and have allowed me to excel beyond where I would ever have gotten on raw technical talent. Those soft skills would likely never have developed without majoring in the humanities.

It's terribly sad to see the slow death of the humanities. Perhaps if more people read some Jonathan Swift, we'd be in a different world and the humanities would still thrive.

[roncesvalles]

The answer is to do a double major in Computer Science and English.

[michaelsmanley]

That's close to what I did. Major in software engineering, equivalent of a second major in English (back then, the university I attended didn't have the concept of "minors" for engineering students, or recognize double majors). That led to a fellowship offer for my MFA. After three years of intensive writing, I went into software development.

Given the cost of higher ed these days, I would imagine that path is not nearly as feasible now as it was in the late 80s/early 90s. (Definitely not at that university, which just discontinued its MFA program in writing.)

[vanilla_nut]

I did this. It's a fun niche to exist in! For folks like me who want to enjoy tinkering but also love writing, I think it's an underappreciated space. So many engineers lean as far as possible into the deeply technical bits that focusing on the "soft" bits like writing and communication is a nice way to stand out.

[red-iron-pine]

I did a Poli-Sci degree with a minor in IT. Work in IT full-time now, but worked in a few different (wildly different, in some cases) fields before then.

Worked out alright, definitely see the differences when working on the architect / manager / principle engineer -- the highly technical types only see tech.

[kevviiinn]

You've never seen such beautiful word choice and phrasing in a git commit

[anonymouskimmer]

In terms of ROI, a person with an English degree is in a much better position than a person who dropped out without completing the final year or semester. The important thing is that your child completes.

[FrontierPsych]

I'm not crapping on your experience at all.

I have a degree in CS/Business.

I know all about ROI and balance sheets and database normalization and boolean logic.

However, I also read all kinds of things on my own, like Thucydides, Seutonius, Virgil, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Joyce; I study art history; I play guitar and piano; I'm learning Spanish; I'm a damn fine cook; I'm super into clothing and know fine clothing - a clothing connoisseur: I've been involved in politics. And a lot more.

The reality is reality - university is just too fucking expensive to fuck around with. Back in the day, in California, tuition was free, and when they increased it, it was still affordable. So anyone could take any type of major that they wished. But now is not then. No amount of wishing will change it.

However, at least in California, you can still get any degree you wish. Going to community college for 2 years is free if your family makes less than about $40K per year, and about $2,000 tuition if more. California State Universities is $5,742 tuition per year. So you can get undergrad courses out of the way for either $0 or $4,000 for 2 years, and $11,484 for California State University. For a total of $11,484 or $15,484 for a 4 year degree. This is only tuition, but you can zero out books and fees and room and board because they are going to be the approximately the same anywhere, unless if you go to high cost of living place like SF metro area, LA metro area, or San Diego metro area. But there's a lot of places like Bakersfield, Fresno, Chico, Humbolt that are a lot lower cost of living. Get a share rental apartment or house, get a part-time job and Bob's your uncle. But with $11K or $15K, you can pretty much get any degree you want. Any kind - English, sociology, whatever, it doesn't matter. You should be able to work part-time to pay for Cal State University tuition, and you can get a loan to help out with food and housing, but you can find a shared housing for $400-500 per month, so that's fucking cheap and might be able to have that part time job pay for that as well and graduate with very little debt.

$400/month in Chico - https://chico.craigslist.org/roo/d/chico-room-in-58-in-nord-...

$460 in Bakersfield - https://bakersfield.craigslist.org/roo/d/bakersfield-furnish...

$500 in Humboldt - https://humboldt.craigslist.org/roo/d/arcata-room-for-rent/7...

I'd say if you do one thing for your son, teach him how to comparison shop on everything. As you said, you went to "a shit school and far, far too much debt."

My first school was a private university, and was $4,500 per year, and that included tuition, room and board - 3 meals a day. That same school is now $60K per year for the same thing. So many private universities charge this much and it's fucked up. I went to school a long time ago. But I only went to that private university for one year before moving to California and going to community college and California State University to graduate for almost nothing - no outstanding debt.

Going to most private university is fucked. See what your public university costs, because, well, the public subsidizes it. I think small states like Vermont are fucked because they have a small population base that can't afford it, but not sure. If your public universities are too expensive, see what the requirements for becoming a California resident are, and move her for a year or two and work full time, then get a university degree with all the $$$ that you earned and saved. Or whatever other state you want to go to. Look at all the public school prices and residency requirements.

I don't know if this is correct or updated, but here's a list of public universities in all 50 states, you want to look at in-state tuition, because you have to move there and work for the amount of time before you get residency. As I suspected, Vermont is the highest. Fuck Vermont, if you live there, move. California is the least expensive. Move here, I live here, it's wonderful despite all you hear. Just go to a low cost of living area - California is huge and more than the large population centers.

But again, teach your kid to comparison shop on everything. Don't rush into purchases, any purchases, any money spent, including university.