[WalterBright]

> where do you propose such rights stem from?

Natural evolution. Human nature.

> would you argue that those same rights were still "natural"/unalienable etc. even in a society that universally didn't accept them?

Yes, and I did just that in this thread.

[wizofaus]

If they came about as the result of "natural evolution" then they can't be truly universal in the sense that evolution could very well have taken different paths that led to a species recognisably similar to us but whose nature and genetic make up would lead to adoption of a quite different set of rights than those you believe to be unalienable. As it is, I suspect you'd have a hard time getting many groups of humans from millennia ago to agree with you on exactly what such rights are. Or are they all wrong too?

[WalterBright]

Bees followed a different evolutionary path, and human rights are not applicable to them.

> Or are they all wrong too?

Humans are full of false beliefs. If they believe that man does not have a right to liberty, then they are wrong, just as wrong as believing that throwing virgins into volcanoes assures a good harvest.

[wizofaus]

I don't believe that man has an intrinsic right to liberty - just that societies where basic human rights (including various freedoms) are protected by the state are more likely to flourish and grant their citizens more meaningful and fairer existence. I don't believe we've come close yet to perfecting exactly what those rights should be and how they should be protected however.

[WalterBright]

> I don't believe that man has an intrinsic right to liberty

Then you wouldn't be complaining about injustice if you were enslaved, right?

[wizofaus]

Well there are plenty of injustices in the world, most of them we can do little about. If my owners gave me the ability the live a decent and meaningful life, that potentially included the opportunities to do things that would be unrealistic if I had to fend entirely for myself, then I wouldn't necessarily complain, no. But if the state failed to protect me against mistreatment by said owners, then I would absolutely have reason to protest and demand better.

[WalterBright]

You're calling it an "injustice", so it looks like you're agreeing with me.