[wonderwonder]

"People want a blunt weapon to promote their politics with." You are right and thats the most fascinating / absurd part of this whole thing. Somehow wet market vs lab leak has political sides and people are emotionally invested in one over the other. Its crazy, lets just have the truth and move on, either way it came out of China and savaged the world. People don't want the lab leak theory to be true for the sole reason that Trump said it and they believe Trump is the devil. I am very much not a fan of Trump and saw his actions leading up to the election as a clear and present danger to our democracy but still have no emotional investment in one theory over another. I just want the truth. This is an example of how insane American politics have gotten over the last 8? years

[jboy55]

Do you need the truth though? In some ways the mere question on the origin of the virus is a political one. No one in the public has ever cared to have definitive proof where any virus came from before. The ability to point to a specific time and place is probably outside of our ability. A lab had it on Nov 1st, 2021. A lab worker brought it home, is that 100% proof that was the first infection? Or did the lab get it from a place where it was already infecting people?

Finally, what do we do with the info? Is it just a, 'oh well, that's interesting'?

[eggy]

I don't think it is just 'evil' China here. I think this is the US, China, and other world researchers who with NIMBY were doing research on coronaviruses and modifying them. Let's not use racism to mask the military-industrial-government complex as the true culprit. I do believe though that an accidental, not bioweapons release, of the virus occurred because people make mistakes. The coverup is why I think this needs to be vetted. It needs to be prevented, and not satisfy some stupid political ideologues. I commented elsewhere in this thread, but I lived in China over 7 years. I have been to Wuhan and the wet market there, and I have been disappointed at seeing tech sites in the US and China that don't live up to what people think when they hear a BSL-4 lab designation. Fauci and crew admit to doing experiments at the WIV, but argue the semantics "gain-of-function". The firin cleavage site on COVID-19 is very unique compared to other Corona viruses. It seems very plausible a lab leak spread to the wet market. We need to audit and call for more transparency so this never happens again, or it is minimized and can be attacked promptly and not when it's too late next time.

[kristopolous]

Moreover, disease stories has a very long history of being used to justify racism and genocide.

There's a specific American racist connection with blaming Chinese immigrants for disease that goes back to the era of the Chinese exclusion act of the 1880s. There were riots attacking chinatowns and doing ethnic cleansing with lynchings and mass destruction in Denver, Tacoma, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Eureka, Seattle and others throughout the 1880s.

Eugenicist texts of the early 1900s claimed Asians were disease carriers as well.

The general public's relationship with this stuff has only really been ugly and I can't stand here in 2023 pontificating absolute free speech and pretend like these types of narratives won't become tools of violence and racism in the hands of scammers and hatemongers.

[wonderwonder]

So are you advocating for the government lying to the American people over where it came from because the truth might seem to be racist? Really? You would rather the government conceal information about a virus that killed millions of people because it might make some people upset with Asians? What else would you like the government to lie about? Murder rates? Crime Rates? The color of a man they are looking for accused of sexual assault?

Additionally it seems like you are advocating removing free speech? Friend you are sitting here actively campaigning for a 1984 style society. Not sure I have ever seen this one before; well done.

[freejazz]

What a self-serving characterization... the issue wasn't that it was "racist" it's that people would have had excessively racialized and polarized reactions. Why are you being so purposefully obtuse about this? It's not a hard concept to grasp at all, but instead you pretend as if no one wanted to say it because the word was bad... no, they were avoiding the obvious reaction that would come from it.

[kristopolous]

It was excessive eisegesis. There may be a less scholarly word for it. Basically op presupposed a dynamic and then found his suppositions in my comment.

Considering possible eisegesis is one of the primary ways responsible experts with an audience police their speech.

It's probably impossible to both effectively communicate complex ideas and defend against all potential eisegesis. I wouldn't be surprised if enlightenment era philosophers talked about this. I'll readily admit their literature are beyond my patience so forgive me for my ignorance

[wonderwonder]

I'm not being self serving, what could I possibly get out of this? I don't understand what the poster is saying or advocating for. I still don't apparently. It seems like both op and you are saying the truth is not important because it could lead to "excessively racialized and polarized reactions".

Which is exactly what I said op was saying in the first place and you and he reacted like I physically attacked you. From my perspective you are being needlessly obtuse not understanding what I am saying. The thought of not telling the truth and willingly advocate for the government to just ignore or not share the root cause of a pandemic that killed millions is anathema to me. I literally cannot wrap my head around it. How can you take the position that it's best not to know because some rogue elements could take it badly?

[freejazz]

What you got out of it was an unfair characterization of something that only serves to advance your argument.

> It seems like both op and you are saying the truth is not important because it could lead to "excessively racialized and polarized reactions".

The truth... you act like there's a wholesale ban on truth. I think you are again mischaracterizing what is actually the media trying to not whip people up into a frenzy. People get whipped up into frenzies, you should probably check out some history. Maybe something on WWII. I'd recommend, Century of The Self, a great documentary that shows what kind of frenzies people get whipped up into when you have politicians using demagoguery to advance their agendas. You don't see how the entire past 3 years isn't completely different if every news paper is running with the headline "CHINESE VIRUS LEAK"? You are going to pretend, the same populace which was incapable of handling any actual discourse on the pandemic response, vaccination, etc, is going to just have a rational response? Regardless of where the virus came from, of which there is plenty literature available for the curious and literate, your perspective here seems childish at best.

>Which is exactly what I said op was saying in the first place and you and he reacted like I physically attacked you. From my perspective you are being needlessly obtuse not understanding what I am saying. The thought of not telling the truth and willingly advocate for the government to just ignore or not share the root cause of a pandemic that killed millions is anathema to me. I literally cannot wrap my head around it. How can you take the position that it's best not to know because some rogue elements could take it badly?

This is childishly naive. It's not rogue elements. The US president at the time was an actual demagogue.

[kristopolous]

> So are you advocating for the government lying to the American people over where it came from because the truth might seem to be racist?

no.

> Really?

no.

> You would rather the government conceal information about a virus that killed millions of people because it might make some people upset with Asians?

no.

> Additionally it seems like you are advocating removing free speech?

no.

The personal responsibility for the liberty of speech includes reasonable consideration for the reaction of people. That's the whole point of Oliver Wendell Holmes "fire in a crowded theater" when he concretized the modern notion of free speech with Learned Hand.

Conduct has consequences

[wonderwonder]

"The personal responsibility for the liberty of speech includes reasonable consideration for the reaction of people."

You said no to all my questions and then with your last paragraph again seemed to advocate for what I said.

[freejazz]

Only if you ignore what "reasonable consideration for the reaction of people." means, which is exactly what you are doing. People like you are the most painful to converse with because you offer responses that are the considerate equivalent to "I know you are but what am I?".

Like, are you seriously going to pretend that you mean the same thing by the "reasonable consideration for the reaction of people" when that's exactly what you've been debating with dozens of people in this thread. Give me a break. It's bad faith, highschool kid that just read ayn rand style posting.

[wonderwonder]

I don't need it, not much in life anyone really needs besides food, air and shelter. This applies to the majority of information on earth. Doesn't stop me wanting to learn about things. Not much I would do with it either, it would just let me know what happened and what caused my kids to spend a year plus in isolation. I'm just a single guy, consequences are a little above my paygrade. Do we need to cause of the Ohio train crash? 9/11?