[grayhatter]

> I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-...

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to pretend to be shocked that in a country who's censorship apparatus is not only the worlds best, but well known by the name "The Great Firewall of China"[^1]. The same country who has demonstrated they will jail you for having or expressing thoughts contrary to the ruling party's stance[^2]. That people who live in said country, when asked, agree their country is the best. If I was worried that admitting I have questions about my country would get me sent to an interment camp, for some forced "re-education". I'd likely adamantly agree my country was democratic.

But even I'm mistaken about all the human rights abuses in China, and it's actually a great, misunderstood place. I still wouldn't trust the majority public opinion about something. Because unless I'm curious about sentiment, it's far better to trust and rely on experts, rather than the feelings of an opinion poll. Which is something I'd hope you agree with given you cite a Cambridge study in this very comment.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China [^2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_China

[yogthos]

Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here. You should also let people like Manning and Assange know that they shouldn't be worried about being sent into an interment camp.

[grayhatter]

> Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here.

Wow, you're just going to be all sorts of mean today... feels bad...

But I think maybe I was unclear. I wasn't claiming the majority of the population in China was unhappy with their lives, or that we shouldn't believe them when they claim to be happy. My point was, it's bad policy to believe an opinion poll, in this case the arguably uneducated populace opinion of how democratic a country is, over experts in the field.

> You should also let people like Manning and Assange know that they shouldn't be worried about being sent into an interment camp.

Interesting red herring here, but my views on the reasonability of these two prosecutions. At least they were for crimes, not related to "subversion of state power". And the fact that there's really only 2 you can name also speaks volumes compared to the volumes you need for the number arrested by CCP.

[yogthos]

You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. This is a profoundly absurd claim. The fact that you don't understand that is absolutely shocking.

Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...

Here's a summary of studies finding that China is in fact more democratic than the US

https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha...

Another Harvard study https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil...

And another survey https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif...

All of these western sources, and all agree on this point.

Furthermore, why don't we take a look at the tangible outcomes of the policies of the CPC to see why the government enjoys such high support, and why people in China consider their country democratic. Chinese government practically eliminated extreme poverty. https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-10-17/Graphics-Ending-China-...

In fact, China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

    If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-...

    The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-glob...

China also massively invests in infrastructure. They used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2014/12/05/china-...

China has built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/ten-years-2...

90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-peop...

Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI

This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet.

Social mobility in China is also far higher than it is in US according to NYT https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/ch...

This is what a government that actually works in the interests of the majority looks like.

[grayhatter]

> You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not.

I'm not, but seeing as you just want to scream at someone on the internet, while also attempting to straw man any argument I make. Which seem to me so that you can argue that opinions from a heavily censored country are more important than independent evaluations from experts. I'll simply respond with

no.

For anyone else following along, majority of the links I looked at, don't support his assertions, or missing enough context that they are deeply misleading. The remainder seems to be "what about [bad thing] in [other place]" It's dangerous to allow that to distract from the point.

[yogthos]

For anyone else following along, I'll just note that they don't make any substantive counterpoint when provided with the evidence, and just made vague claims that evidently my sources "don't support his assertions". How that is the case is not explained. Seems pretty clear which person is being disingenuous here.

[dbreggs22]

Nice, thanks. Saved me time. Lol

[DiogenesKynikos]

Both of you are wrong.

China is most definitely not a democracy. At the same time, it is misunderstood in the West, and it's nothing like the nightmare that most Westerners imagine. Westerners are subjected to an unbelievable level of propaganda when it comes to China. China is neither a utopia nor a dystopia.