[a1pulley]

HOAs have their downsides, but I do really appreciate one of my CC&Rs: in my ~4 square mile city, we are not allowed to have exterior lights apart from ones to illuminate driveways and patios. Moreover, there are no street lights in the entire city.

It's an oasis of uncorrupted night in the unlikeliest of places: Los Angeles. You can see city lights from certain vantage points, but in most places it is pitch black. Living here feels like perpetual camping. It is wonderful, and it would be stressful for me to return to living in a place with perpetual illumination.

[aeharding]

> there are no street lights in the entire city.

Yikes. Street lighting is one of the most important safety improvements, especially for people walking, as most pedestrian deaths due to drivers occur at night.

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/lighting.c...

Of course, if we weren't so dependent on cars to do literally everything this wouldn't be the case, and we could safely get rid of a lot of street lighting.

[eastbound]

Similarly, the installation of public lightening by Colbert in the XVIIIth in Paris, lowered criminality by an order of magnitude.

It also enabled women rights, since, with the ability to somewhat walk securely at night or in the early morning, comes the ability to go to the factory and work somewhere else than in the house.

[aziaziazi]

Some studies found no evidence for an association between crime and switch off or part-night lighting [0]

[0]https://jech.bmj.com/content/69/11/1118.short?g=w_jech_ahead...

[eastbound]

We’ll need more and more of those studies as we switch off those lights to save energy. If it was possible to VC-fund them, that’s where I would put most if my money.

[RobotToaster]

I appreciate how important it was in the past, but in the era of inexpensive and powerful LED flashlights, streetlights do seem rather redundant and wasteful.

[TaylorAlexander]

I was under the impressions that street lights promote safety by reducing chances of person to person crime. It’s harder to hide in the shadows and get away without people seeing you with streetlights. So a handheld flashlight doesn’t solve that problem.

[hackernewds]

Absolutely does. Here's the data to back that up https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study

I feel this push for being able to see the Milky way every night fails to recognize the realities of urban life in non-matcha latte neighborhoods

[culi]

The problem is that extremely powerful lights, as many cities are tending to more and more, can actually create more blind spots and makes it harder for our eyes to adjust to those dark spots. If cities adopted more, weaker, warmer lights we'd likely see much less damage to the ecosystem AND increased safety

[_hcuq]

Maybe the non latte neighbourhoods need streetlights. But we could get rid of them in the latte neighbourhoods.

[__MatrixMan__]

Modern LED's are so darn bright, the right handheld flashlight might as well be considered a weapon.

[lightedman]

In typical night conditions, a single Nichia 219-series LED at full drive would temporarily flash-blind someone with just a quarter of a second of exposure.

[Zak]

This is true, and among high-power LEDs, the 219 series is typically chosen for its color rendering and tint, not its output or intensity.

[TSiege]

Maybe in rural environments, but they're quite important in urban environments

[worthless-trash]

Do people in the US just walk in the middle of the road ?

[leviathant]

I know some people think this is a silly question but the answer is, in my experience, yes. That's both in urban and exurban environments, in my experience.

[Xt-6]

For that they first would need to walk ...

[michaelteter]

Not usually, but sometimes cars drive too close to the edge of the road, and the road has no sidewalk.

And despite good advice (or simply due to a momentary circumstance), some people walk at night with dark clothing. You can turn a corner a hit a person very easily if they are in any half of your side of the street.

[__MatrixMan__]

Depends on the road. My neighborhood has no sidewalks. I prefer it. Prevents the cars from acting like they own the place.

[jaggederest]

The critical question is, do people in the US just drive on the sidewalks?

(It's impossible to walk on sidewalks in a city without crossing streets every block, and that's where car/pedestrian conflicts occur)

[michaelteter]

> do people in the US just drive on the sidewalks?

I think you must first ask, "What percentage of roads in the US have sidewalks?" It's nowhere close to 100%.

[SamPatt]

I live in a small village in the US, pop. ~1,000. I'd guess that less than half the streets within village limits have sidewalks.

And of course outside the village it's miles and miles of fields and forests with none.

Urban life is very different from rural.

[TSiege]

Street lights aren't just important for cars? Imagine being a woman walking around a city at night in the dark by yourself

[culi]

Street lights can also aggravate the problem of safety. Unfortunately most cities seem to believe that more lumens = more safety. But often times this creates more stark dark spots and makes it harder for our eyes to adjust to them

What would really improve safety the most is having more, warmer, weaker lights. One city in the UK ended up taking down their streetlights after some attacks and replacing them with christmas lights strewn across some city trees.

Not only did it look nicer, end up costing less, and was less damaging to the local ecosystem, but it also likely made the area much safer

[_hcuq]

Flashlights? Reflectors? We don't need streetlights illuminating empty roads all night.

[__MatrixMan__]

Another approach is to have personal lighting. I regularly attend an event in one of the darker parts of Colorado where it's considered common courtesy to have a glowy something or other attached to you. There can be collisions even between pedestrians. Nobody gets hurt but it's awkward when it happens so you start to appreciate the extra cues.

[op00to]

It’s LA, no one walks.

[xjay]

These days we'd tap into the cell phone network/radio waves to track pedestrians. It's the modern safety reflector or high-visibility clothing.

Are you not carrying your phone with you? Well, "it would be a shame if something happened to you."

[Zak]

I have a family member in Sedona, AZ. There are no street lights there except for a single state highway, and private always-on outdoor lighting is legally restricted to being low, dim, and shaded.

It's pleasant, and I find driving at night there easier because headlights provide more contrast when not everything is illuminated.

[wcarron]

I'm just up the road in Flagstaff and the dark skies are absolutely one of my favorite parts of living here. Darkness is an underrated addition to quality of life.

[vkou]

Whereas I find nothing pleasant about my night-time drives through the suburbs of Bellevue. I spend the entire drive paranoid that someone's going to cross the street, and that I won't even see them until they are right in front of me.

Rain, darkness, tree cover, incredibly bright oncoming headlights, poor street lighting, and enough-of-a-walking-culture-that-people-might-be-walking-at-night is a great combination.

[LeifCarrotson]

So slow down until you can safely stop when an obstruction appears at the limits of your low beams.

The speed limit is a maximum speed allowed for driving in clear weather in the daytime, not a minimum for driving in rain in the dark.

[a1pulley]

I came here to say the same as the sibling comment. Why not slow down? That is what happens in my city: residents drive slowly because they don't want to hit a neighbor.

[vkou]

When I slow down driving through trickier areas in Seattle in that situation, most other drivers understand why I'm doing that.

I do that in the suburbs, and everyone loses their shit.

[stephencanon]

That’s a them problem, though, not yours to worry about.

[ClumsyPilot]

> there are no street lights in the entire city.

Doesn't this cause issues?

Sounds like it would turn 20 minute walk into a dangerous excercise. Do people walking on foot carry torches?

This sounds really crazy from road safety perspective

I don't mean crime, i mean getting lost and collisions.

[a1pulley]

> Do people walking on foot carry torches?

It depends. If there's a full moon out, I often walk without a light. It's wonderful. Otherwise, I use a headlamp.

> Doesn't this cause issues?

No. I think the main effect is that people finish their walks, bike rides, and so forth before dark. Obviously that's impossible for much of the year for people who work 9 to 5, but given the demographics of this community—small business owners with flexible schedules and retirees—it works for most. In particular, there is one woman from a nearby street who walks past my office window every afternoon: in the winter she walks by at 3, and in the summers she walks by around 6 with her husband.

> getting lost

I don't think this is a realistic concern for those with smart phones. Moreover, the hilly topography and lack of cycles in the road network (barring one) make it very easy to remain oriented.

[xjay]

A safety reflector or other high-visibility clothing is a passive method for sending light back at the driver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_reflector

[hackernewds]

There are numerous others that support it

https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study

YMMV but it also seems intuitively apparent?

[cld8483]

> Do people walking on foot carry torches?

At night, if there is insufficient moonlight? Yes of course. Street lights only exist in urban areas, if you're walking anywhere else in the world at night, a flashlight seems like a logical choice.

[antisthenes]

OP clearly stated they have an HOA.

If you have an HOA - you live in an urban area. So I'm not sure what your comment alludes to. If I live in such a place, I expect to be able to walk on sidewalks without a flashlight.

[a1pulley]

> If I live in such a place, I expect to be able to walk on sidewalks without a flashlight.

We don't have any sidewalks. People either take trails adjacent to roads or walk on the roads themselves. Everyone is aware that pedestrians and equestrians are first class citizens, so residents drive slowly. That's not true for some delivery drivers and domestic workers, but we find the risk-reward tradeoff reasonable enough to have left the lighting provision in our CC&Rs for the last eighty years. Sometimes, expectations are at odds with the realities of what is tolerable in terms of safety, good for local flora and fauna, and pleasurable for ourselves.

[sammalloy]

> I expect to be able to walk on sidewalks without a flashlight.

There are any number of ways to provide illumination that also mitigates light pollution. This generally means placing metal hats on any external light sources (vertical or horizontal) that effectively pushes the light down and minimizes leakage. The worst offenders in my area are the globular light sources that emit light in all directions.

[cld8483]

I distinctly remember trick-or-treating in suburbia with a flashlight. A flashlight at night is not so odd, that's pretty much what they're for.

(And yes, there were sidewalks...)

[pard68]

Half the month, in really dark places, the moon is sufficient.

[sammalloy]

> Half the month, in really dark places, the moon is sufficient

Came here to say this. Unfortunately, most people in urban environments have no idea. I spent literally decades walking at night in an area with no streetlights. Your eyes adjust to the dark, and anyone who comes along with a flashlight really annoys you.

Edit: I should note, that in all my time doing this, the only time I ever ran into a problem was when a herd of deer came running at me in the darkness. I don’t think a flashlight would have helped.

[twobitshifter]

light would have stopped them in their tracks

[sammalloy]

I guess you are correct, but I was too busy enjoying the night sky.

[lll-o-lll]

Yeah, not so much in Australia. We have a crap ton of dangerous snakes, and you need that torch to be able to see them on the path.

“Don't ever step on a snake

Or you're making a big mistake!

For the sake of your protection

I suggest you change direction

Get out of there for good, for

goodness sake!” (Don Spencer)

[pard68]

That's fair. Our only really dangerous snake is a cottonmouth. Even our rattlers and copperheads are mostly nonlethal and nonaggressive.

I was limbing a tree in the pasture, looked down after dropping a limb and a copperhead was just sitting next to my foot. Wasn't ready to strike, just watching me like dudes come out with chainsaws and cut trees next to him on the daily.

[lll-o-lll]

It depends on the time of year, the temperature, the area, and the time of night. I used to wander about in the country as a kid by moonlight in certain areas/times/etc, but I knew it was basically safe. Other times it would’ve been literal suicide.

I don’t think any snake is genuinely “aggressive”, but most will bite if you step on them. It’s one of those funny things about moonlight; you can see, but you can’t see detail.

[cld8483]

The rattlers around here could fuck you up, particularly if you can't get medical attention within a few hours because you're disabled on the ground alone at night. But fortunately, rattlers rattle (usually) so the snakes actually help people avoid this sort of accident.

Unfortunately, may people kill rattlesnakes when they become aware of them, which is usually after the snake started rattling. So there is now a selective pressure on rattlesnakes to stop rattling. Very misguided.

[worthless-trash]

In my limited experience, streetlights encourage snakes. streetlights bring insects, insects bring birds, birds bring snakes. The snakes are not always under the light but in the trees around the area.

But even with streetlights, you are absolutely right, always bring a torch. Ive seen a snake get stepped on, but fortunately have never done it myself.

[lostapathy]

> birds bring snakes

Where do you live that snakes hunt birds at night? Or what about birds attracts snakes???

[SamPatt]

My rule for night hiking is only in places I already know.

Moonlight is sufficient if I'm familiar with a trail or street.

There's no way I'd try it somewhere new. Not enough detail.

But I would encourage anyone who has a familiar trail they feel is safe to try hiking it after dark (assuming it's allowed). Really unique experience.

[cld8483]

Weather permitting too, but yes. Moonlight is quite bright once your eyes have adjusted to it.

[pard68]

When you look at those darkness maps where I live is about as dark as the darkest places in the USA. For us the moon is the real light pollution. Accidentally look at the moon directly and your night vision is shot for a few minutes.

[jakeogh]

Fortunately, no[1]. I live in Tucson AZ, and it's wonderful. We are the home of https://www.darksky.org/

You excluded crime from your comment, but I want to say that anecdotally, places where there are street lights are where the street crime happens.

[1] https://thefifthestate.com.au/innovation/lighting-innovation...

Losing the Dark - Flat Screen Version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd82jaztFIo

[hnlmorg]

Cars are usually equipped with headlights. ;)

On a more serious note, it’s pretty common for UK roads to lack street lights. Particularly in more rural areas. The majority of my drive home from work is unlit.

[justincormack]

I live in a small village with no streetlights, and lovely views of the stars. It is very dark here at night, was a real shock coming from the town, I used to walk around where I was previously, that was not well lit but the amount of ambient light was actually quite high. Very different here.

[nanomonkey]

> Do people walking on foot carry torches?

I find a flashlight and a small pocket knife are essential every day carry. It's a quality of life issue for me, I want to be able to examine something at any time of day, plus street lights are intermittent and I walk a lot. I live in Oakland, a major city, but still insist on turning on a flashlight when I cross the street. People don't pay enough attention.

[ClumsyPilot]

> small pocket knife are essential every day carry

In Britain we imprison people for carrying butter knives

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1487762/Butter-knife...

[fl0ps]

I'd be carrying more than a pocket knife as essential in Oakland, lately.

[gnicholas]

I walk through my neighborhood at night, and some houses have streetside lights, but most do not. I always bring a flashlight but typically don't use it. I do teach my kids they have to be very careful of cars, because they are too short to be seen.

[cryptonector]

Yellow street lighting is not as polluting as LED street lighting. Bring back yellow lighting!

[a1pulley]

I'm fond of warm, yellow hues for indoor spaces. If I were forced to choose a color for outdoor lighting, I would go for the same. However, white vs. yellow has already played out in some areas: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-09-30-mn-40657-...

[adgjlsfhk1]

This is only half true. bluer LED lights only need half as much light to get the same visibility.

[cryptonector]

The yellow lights were never brighter than the blue lights. And the hue matters.

[nick__m]

why completly ban the exterior lights when restricting the type, direction and power of the lights is enought to qualify for a region to be designated as a IDSR by the International Dark sky Association. For pratical exterior lighting tips approuved by the IDA this page is a good resource : https://en.cieletoilemontmegantic.org/citoyens

[opportune]

I think the LA area’s low street light density is partially because things are so spread out that it wouldn’t be worth it. You probably still have too much light to see things like the Milky Way.

And I gotta say anecdotally, one of my top-10 most stressful driving experiences was trying to navigate Gardena at night, because they not only have few streetlights, but seem to use ineffective reflective strips as well.

[cvccvroomvroom]

It's still LA, where driving is war between the insane, the jerk, and the insane jerk.

And earthquakes, forest fires, fresh water insecurity, neglect of the unhoused, and people who wouldn't get the South Park episode about the pretense of a personal brand.

(Don't forget absurd housing costs.)

[hammock]

What part of LA is this?

[a1pulley]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Hills,_California

[Animats]

Somewhere in LA, a burglar is probably reading this.

[a1pulley]

If I were inclined to rob houses, I would find the challenge and risk of robbing houses here quite interesting. Apart from the fact that all roads in go through manned gates, this is the most republican city in SoCal. In translation: most of us have a lot of guns.

[RangerScience]

Very off-topic, but the Astra Lumina night walk at the gardens near you is actually really nice, if you haven’t been.

[rqtwteye]

Very wealthy area