[dale_glass]

What I think is of particular concern is perverse incentives, and a race to the bottom.

* Somebody with a pristine battery takes a risk by swapping. They probably won't, because they're extremely likely to get a worse one than they arrived with.

* Somebody ruins their battery in some way. A battery swap lets them with a high likelihood get something better. They'll probably do that.

* People doing a swap have a risk with getting something worse, and getting stuck somewhere. Every time that happens the reputation of the swap stations gets worse.

* All the above results in the quality of batteries being available at the station going down and down, until the entire system collapses.

What are the possible counter-measures? You could have user registration and punish people with a fine if they drop in a broken battery, but the batteries are expensive, so the fine would be large. That'd be a risky proposal.

[Nursie]

You’re not getting a worse battery than one you owned, because you don’t own it, you just swap again when you need to. Batteries that get too old get retired by the swap stations.

[dale_glass]

So who owns it? What happens when you cross countries or state borders?

And if people don't own it, why would they take good care of it?

[Nursie]

I'm fascinated by your responses, I genuinely am. And you're not the only one responding in this way. But it's so alien to me.

Here's a way to try to work around things like range limitations in EVs and long charging times, by setting up infrastructure to swap batteries in and out, and your first thought is about maintaining the value of your vehicle, not the utility of the system.

> So who owns it?

Presumably they are all leased from the vehicle company. Think "Battery as a service", not "This is mine".

> What happens when you cross countries or state borders?

I don't know, this seems an odd detail to fixate on though.

> And if people don't own it, why would they take good care of it?

Presumably these are going to be relatively robust, and there will be some sort of conditions of good conduct on participating in the scheme, or part of the lease payment constitutes insurance against maltreatment. And does that particularly matter to you? The swap-stations make sure batteries are in good order before swapping them into your car.

[dale_glass]

> Here's a way to try to work around things like range limitations in EVs and long charging times, by setting up infrastructure to swap batteries in and out

I think it's for the most part a non-problem. Most EV users don't wait to charge. They charge at idle times and start the day with a fully charged car. The need to charge quickly is far rarer for an EV user than going to the gas station for a gas/diesel user.

> and your first thought is about maintaining the value of your vehicle, not the utility of the system.

No, my concern is how is the system going to maintain its own utility without crashing and burning economically. Because a battery is an expensive component and ultimately has to be paid for somehow, there's no ignoring that.

> Presumably they are all leased from the vehicle company. Think "Battery as a service", not "This is mine".

The problem I see is that a battery isn't a car. With a car you can walk around it and say "you've clearly crashed into something here, we'll send you the bill for the repairs". A battery is a much more obscure component that's easier to abuse and harder to determine it's been abused.

Worse, it's a component that can suffer grievous damage by complete accident -- leave it discharged in the sun for a day or two and that'll probably hurt quite a bit.

> I don't know, this seems an odd detail to fixate on though.

How so? A car is for moving people around. People sometimes want to go far. So what happens when you take stuff you don't own into a country where that company doesn't exist? Is the company going to fine you for charging it with an unauthorized charger?

Is the utility compromised because a good part of the value was the battery swap proposition and you can't do that anymore outside of wherever this particular company has hardware?

> And does that particularly matter to you?

It matters for the survival of the system. If I don't own the battery, it's not my problem that it breaks. Therefore I have less incentive to take care of it. But the battery in the end must be paid for, so either the swap company eats the loss and goes bankrupt, or fines customers until getting a terrible PR and goes bankrupt from lack of customers.

[latchkey]

In the case of VinFast, they own it. You can't even buy the car itself, it is a lease from the start. You'd be correct in the economics not making any sense and of course people are ripping on that in their forums. Hopefully, they figure it out eventually. Luckily for VinFast, the entire Vietnamese government is backing them.

What you're imagining though is that you own the battery. In the case of NIO, it is a lease the entire time. When you sell the car, you're selling the lease on the battery with it.

[flappyeagle]

The station could test the battery and charge you/give you a credit depending on the capacity difference. Every battery would have an audit trail as well

[dale_glass]

A Tesla battery seems to cost around $20K per Google. So if your is at 50% life, do you get a bill for $10K?

That doesn't sound like a thing a lot of people would want.

[flappyeagle]

Yes you're right. So maybe the policy would not be exactly as you outlined.