[braingenious]

To quote GP

> If vax mRNA travelled around via the circulatory system and was taken up by cells in, say, the walls of blood vessels throughout the body or cells in the heart or pericardium or in other tissues, then some cells in those locales would be destroyed…

This is something that you would consider to be common knowledge?

[fidgewidge]

To anyone who has researched this topic, yes, and many other things. How do you think the mRNA vaccines work? If you got interested in vaccines around the middle of 2021 and started finding and subscribing to the right blogs and people, you know a whole lot of things about this topic that other people don't. These sorts of threads are a bit frustrating because it involves watching people catch up to where we were 12 months ago.

[braingenious]

Can you link me to the papers that make that particular paragraph obvious?

Also can you elaborate on why having prior knowledge on this topic disqualifies you from being knowledgeable on this topic?

Wouldn’t the papers you’ve read have been written by people in the field of immunology or bioscience? How are those people not disqualified due to prior knowledge?

edit: Also please elaborate on how I identify the “right” blogs.

Sorry this is frustrating for you. I do not regularly come to HN for biology knowledge from software devs that can’t seem to provide any sources or credentials. What GP is trying to convey comes pretty close to medical advice and “people that have studied this professionally are categorically untrustworthy” seems a bit like some uh, less than germane bullshit, to be frank.

[fidgewidge]

OK let's work through the claims.

1. The vaccines cause cells to take up the mRNA and express the spike on their surface. This is uncontroversial and covered in any detailed enough intro to how the vaccines work, see the diagram here for an example:

https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Understand...

2. This results in the cells being destroyed. This is exactly what you'd expect if you've sat through teen-level biology classes: T cells (CD8+) identify other cells that appear to be expressing antigens and destroy them. Bioscience people hate admitting this in plain English, so finding papers stating it clearly is a complete pain in the ass. They normally only talk about "stimulating a cellular response". But this page does at least partly spell it out:

https://www.pri-med.com/blog/2020/the-new-mrna-vaccine-expla...

> In contrast to the older vaccine models, the Moderna and Pfizer research shows that the new mRNA vaccines produce powerful helper and cytotoxic T cell responses

Cytotoxic means "kills cells".

3. If they got into the heart, they'd destroy heart cells. Here's a case study series paper that looks at heart damage caused by vaccines:

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/23/13/6940/html?s=09

> Importantly, infectious causes have been excluded in all patients. The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein has been detected sparsely on cardiomyocytes of nine patients, and differential analysis of inflammatory markers such as CD4+ and CD8+ T cells suggests that the inflammatory response triggered by the vaccine may be of autoimmunological origin.

i.e. the heart sac becomes inflamed because the immune system attacks it, and the immune system attacks it because of the vaccine.

> edit: Also please elaborate on how I identify the “right” blogs.

They tend to cross-link to each other a lot. Start from the Alex Berenson archives, El Gato Malo, Igor Chudov, Daily Sceptic. None are perfect but they are well network and try to build arguments based on published papers and primary evidence. If you don't like them, branch out from there. Also look on HN with showdead turned on. Many inconvenient stories about the vaccines get flagkilled.

> “people that have studied this professionally are categorically untrustworthy” seems a bit like some uh, less than germane bullshit, to be frank.

Sure, and I guess Google employees are the world's experts on ads and privacy so if they say something about those topics you couldn't possibly disagree right? Also, oil companies are the world's expert in energy, so we should do whatever they say, and so on and so forth.

Hate to break it to you but yes, people who have studied these topics professionally are categorically untrustworthy. If they say or do anything that might reduce people's willingness to take vaccines they get fired and sometimes blacklisted from their entire profession, ending their careers overnight. Any attempt to speak out is systematically suppressed by the media who have all complicit in pressuring people to take the vaccines too. No surprise that the only people who can actually talk honestly are the ones who aren't already fully committed.