[stouset]

> we have an almost complete understanding of human biology

Frankly I can’t believe someone would state such a thing with a straight face.

Also, gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one. Are you confusing gender and sex?

[fsckboy]

>gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one.

are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis?

>Are you confusing gender and sex?

American Heritage Dictionary usage note on this point:

Usage Note: Some people maintain that the word sex should be reserved for reference to the biological aspects of being male or female or to sexual activity, and that the word gender should be used only to refer to sociocultural roles. Accordingly, one would say The effectiveness of the treatment appears to depend on the sex of the patient and In society, gender roles are clearly defined. In some situations this distinction avoids ambiguity, as in gender research, which is clear in a way that sex research is not. The distinction can be problematic, however. Linguistically, there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias, and it may seem contrived to insist that sex is incorrect in this instance.

source, and of course the definitions

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=sex

[stouset]

> are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis

Yes, yes, psychology is applied neurology is applied biology is applied chemistry is applied physics. And yet we have psychologists and neurologists and biologists and chemists and physicists and they all seem to believe they have different jobs.

Your quoted usage note is stating that the word “gender“ can mean the same thing as “sex” in certain contexts. Not that it can’t mean something different. And the context is quite clear from the surrounding discussion.

Playing pointless semantic games doesn’t buy you any points.

[fsckboy]

your statement doesn't make any point other than mine, but do you mean semantic games like saying that gender is different from sex?

the (Big) Five Factor model of personality (standard psychology) measures sex-based population (density) differences, and shows up across cultures.

[stouset]

Since you’re a fan of the dictionary, I am certain you will appreciate the following:

Merriam-Webster[1]:

> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

> c: GENDER IDENTITY

American Heritage Dictionary[2]:

> b. One's identity as female or male or as neither entirely female nor entirely male.

O.E.D.[3]:

> b. The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones

[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

[2]: https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender

[3]: https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/77468

[fsckboy]

I don't like dictionaries, I like research.

Merriam-Webster 2018 says, sense 1 abc [gramatical gender] but sense 2 is all about sex.

>2a SEX ...

>2b the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

http://web.archive.org/web/20181125203538/https://www.merria...

it doesn't mention gender identity, but gender identity is a perfectly good word for gender identity.

I don't have access to the OED here but I'm sure we'd see a similar timeline.

[ulizzle]

We do have an almost complete understanding, and I actually think I was being too generous; but at least for the purpose of this convo, we certainly do know about X & Y chromosomes.

I don’t believe that gender is a psychological construct. I believe that gender & sex are synonymous & it’s a politically correct construct to differentiate them in any way.

[stouset]

Sure, why have two words to describe two separate but related concepts when we could just decide to pretend that one of those concepts doesn’t even exist?

“Someone’s physical reproductive bits” and “someone’s own internal perception of their sexual identity” are two separate concepts even if you believe they ought to be in sync with one another. And then when you acknowledge that there do exist people who seem quite certain that those values differ for themselves—even if you think they oughtn’t—isn’t it nice to have a word that allows us to describe this exact scenario?

Also, I’d encourage you to ask more or less any biologist whether or not they think we’re just about done wrapping up their field of expertise.

[adrianN]

Some people of the same sex feel differently about their bodies and their sexuality. It seems useful to me to have words to describe that difference. I don't really see an "ideology" in that any more than I see "ideology" in other cultural phenomena, e.g. "surfer dudes", "skaters", or "weed aficionados". It's only made into an ideology by people who seek divisional talking points for political discourse.

[stouset]

Just imagine how quickly society would fall apart if we had people who don’t even surf calling themselves “surfer dudes” simply because all their friends surf, they dress and talk the part, and they participate enthusiastically in wider surfing culture.

[flangola7]

Then how do you define trans and nonbinary people such as myself?

[slaw]

If you produce sperm then you are male.

If you produce ovum you are female.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female

[stouset]

Do you make a habit of collecting eggs and/or sperm from the people you meet for the purpose of determining their biological sex? How many of your friends’ and acquaintances’ gametes have you confirmed?

If this person[1] tells you that they are a man, what level of scrutiny should they be subject to in order to confirm this to your satisfaction? If you do not intend to reproduce with them, to what end is it important that you establish which type of gamete they produce?

If a future surgery allows a woman to produce sperm, is this what will qualify them as a man from your perspective?

Where do hermaphrodites fit into this picture? What about people that produce neither sperm nor ova?

[1]: https://trueactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/transgen...

[slaw]

Yes, if future surgery allows a women to change their chromosome and produce sperm then they will be a man.

[stouset]

Do you consider a tomato to be a vegetable or a fruit?

Biologically, a tomato is a fruit. This is inarguable fact. If you are a biologist breeding new strains, you will conceptualize a tomato as a fruit. And yet culinarily a tomato is a vegetable. Put a tomato in a fruit salad and people are going to look at you funny. Note that a biologist who eats food can and will consider a tomato both a fruit and a vegetable depending on the context.

If you can understand this, you can understand that someone’s biological sex—primarily relevant to reproduction and healthcare—can differ from their psychological sex (i.e., their gender), which is more relevant to social contexts. Both can be true simultaneously, but unless you’re a doctor caring for a trans person or intending to perform reproductive acts with them, someone’s psychological sex is almost certainly more relevant to your relationship with them than which gamete they happen excrete.

[lern_too_spel]

What if you produce neither or both from birth? What if surgery changes which of those, if any, you produce?

What if I told you that none of this really matters to me? What if people discriminating against people who want to be one or the other now makes it matter because discrimination increases crime and reduces productivity?

[slaw]

If a surgery changes their chromosome then they change sex too.

What if I tell you I don't care what sex you are or you think you are.

[lern_too_spel]

> If a surgery changes their chromosome then they change sex too.

Now you've completely changed your definition in the course of a few minutes, but you still don't want to change your beliefs. Funny how that works. Imagining what your new definition will be, what if you have any of these sex chromosome anomalies, as more than 2 out of every thousand humans do? What if you use gene therapy to change your chromosomes but don't alter your anatomy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_anomalies

> What if I tell you I don't care what sex you are or you think you are.

Then why are you making a big deal of trying to define it for others and supporting those trying to legislate who can believe what?

[gonnies]

It's massively complex once you start digging down into the details, and the bulk of it really is unknown. I used to work in biomedical research and the enormity of just how much we don't know became more apparent the more I learned about the topic.

That said, I agree with you on how nonsensical gender ideology is. I find it particularly irksome because of how unscientific the whole thing is, there is a huge amount of bullshit being passed off as facts.