[briandon]

As Campbell asked, why has it been left to Danish researchers (who were doing Hepatitis C testing and decided to tack on an assay for covid jab mod-spike mRNA) to look into these questions? Why haven't Moderna or Pfizer undertaken large-scale studies of this type? Why haven't they been mandated by large regulatory agencies in the USA, UK, et al.; Japan; etc.? Why haven't well-funded researchers in those nations done similar work?

We're so far downstream from the initial rollout that nobody seems to recall the blanket assurances that all of the mRNA in the shots would be taken up and translated into modified spike proteins in a very short period given by health authorities and putative experts during the height of the coercion campaigns.

It's much the same as with the issue of biodistribution. Most have forgotten why we were promised the contents of one of these shots remained at the injection site and how the practice of aspiration of the needle (done in Denmark, after concerns were raised, but rarely done elsewhere) was pooh-poohed. The same individuals and entities preached the stays-in-the-arm gospel and derided anyone who raised concern or produced research results indicating wider distribution, via the vasculature, throughout recipients' bodies.

The same people who promulgate the idea that VAERS and the Yellow Card system and analogous institutions are now honeypots for fake reports from Russian bots or the "Science Truster' bogeyman du jour.

Oh well. Spilled milk at this point. The revelations will continue to trickle out for the foreseeable future. Turnover in the upper echelons of regulatory and funding bodies and in academic biomed research will gradually loosen more tongues. Eventually, there may be large lawsuits and settlements. We will see.

[bilekas]

I'm no medical professional but this seems like a bit of an over reaction given the article. The article doesn't make mention if there is anything particularly negative about this. More focuses on the behavior of the mRNA after a given time.

I imagine to know something like that would be useful for later itterarations or variations of mRNA applications?

[briandon]

Making cells in your body produce an antigen that stays rooted within those cells and causes them to be destroyed is risky business. There are reasonable applications, like products selectively taken up by cancer cells that cause them to be targeted for elimination by the patient's immune system, for these techniques. And wider applications for products that cause a patient's cells to produce non-antigenic materials. I'm a proponent of mRNA therapies.

The mRNA (and adenovirus-vector) covid shots, however, indiscriminately cause (healthy) cells to produce and display antigens (the transmembrane-anchored modified covid spike) and, intentionally, kick off an immune response that gets those cells killed. I'm not a proponent of this specific type of pharmaceutical product.

[JPLeRouzic]

> kick off an immune response that gets those cells killed.

I am not a scientist but I was to ask if this was the case for every vaccine, yet I reflected that no in pre-mRNA vaccines the principle is different: You body cells are not primed to produce an antigen. The antigen is brought externally and T-cells recognize it. They kill only infected cells.

If I understand correctly in mRNA vaccines, all cells produce the antigen (the spike protein) so they are indiscriminately killed by T-cells.

Is my understanding correct?

[jagraff]

There are plenty of vaccines that use attenuated viruses - these also force your cells to produce antigens, and in fact the virus reproduces in your cells and damages them on its own as well. You could think of an mRNA vaccine as kind of like an attenuated virus vaccine, except for the fact that it can’t reproduce itself at all, unlike a virus.

[etiam]

JPLeRouzic's point about indiscriminate expression is significant though.

The tiny lipid bubbles used to introduce the (recent mRNA-)vaccines should introduce foreign nucleic acids (RNA,DNA) just on the basis of there being a cell membrane to merge into, whereas virions ('virus particles'), attenuated strain or not, would typically (always?) co-opt some receptor or other trans-membrane molecule, other than the membrane phospholipids, to aid their introduction of foreign nucleic acids.

In other words, the virions are at least somewhat restricted/targeted in what cell types they enter, and in many cases even the susceptible cells can in principle affect their level of susceptibility by regulating how much of those co-opted molecules are created, or allowed to be transported to the surface. (Innate immune response includes cells generally becoming more wary about how they transport materials and metabolize molecules we might describe as carrying information)

So it's a prefectly good description, in my opinion, that

> [for these] mRNA vaccines, all cells produce the antigen (the spike protein) so they are indiscriminately killed by T-cells.

although there are indeed aspects which are similar with live vaccines.

[JPLeRouzic]

Thanks I was not aware of that

[shagie]

There's a good page on how the traditional flu vaccines are made at https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/how-fluvaccine-made.htm

One of the "this is concerning" things with the traditional chicken egg based version is that they are chicken eggs.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/27/health/chicken-egg-flu-vaccin... and an amusing video on it from Half as Interesting - https://youtu.be/F0qD5argOHE

The corresponding part is that they are chickens and you've likely heard about the price of eggs recently ( https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/01/as-egg-prices-soar-t... ).

There is good reason to be looking at alternative ways to creating vaccines.

[phkahler]

There is in fact a conventional vaccine for Covid, but most people are not aware nor do we have access to it. The inventors did not patent it but made it a gift to the world. Buy hey, money and "do as I say". Oh it's called Corbevax.

[JPLeRouzic]

Thanks, but it came late in the game (end of 2021).

I think there was also a open source Covid vaccine from MIT but I can't find a reference.

[hcknwscommenter]

Your comment raises two main straw-men. Neither of which seem to be supported by facts.

What stay-in-the-arms gospel are you talking about? What reason do you have, besides Campbell's baseless assertion, that such large-scale studies of nucleic acid persistence has not been performed?

[phkahler]

Not going to dig for a source, but we were told that the spike proteins only get produced at the injection site. There was evidence that the spikes do damage and people were told not to worry because they didn't float around the bloodstream - this seemed obviously false to me, but whatever. Turns out the RNA goes everywhere now.

The problem isn't these facts. The problem is health authorities and companies destroying their own credibility with some more critical people.

[zpeti]

How are his two arguments straw men? You are fine to ask for references for his statements, but these are not straw men.

Maybe learn the meaning of these terms before using them?

[jjtheblunt]

Do you have reason to believe that Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer didn't do this research longer ago, since they worked on mrna before Covid was a topic?

[sander27home]

Because they know already. Many patient died from these jab DIRECTLY. But of course everyone must ignored it. You can see many medical researchers hesitant to research on this topics let alone getting published and then peer-reviewed. Personally I've known people dying DIRECTLY of the jab within 2 days of it. And I know many knowing someone died and not hearing from someone else someone else story. And yet, here even medical doctors have been cautioned not to speak about it or will face consequences not only from pro-vac group but government or medical board displine. So at this point, we will just have to keep it quiet until #1 a lot of people been affected like thalidomide years ago, or #2 nothing happens, and those did died are just collateral damages.