[coldtea]

>Looking through history art has always been commercial - it's just the audience that changes.

Well, not exactly in the same way. Commercial is not about "catering to an audience", it's about catering to mass audiences, and the compromises that entails.

For example, an "artistic" indie group catering to just a tiny minority is not just "as commercial" as a pop production, unless we stretch the term beyond recognition).

There's a huge difference in attitude and approach. The artistic group would rather lose money than incorporat some elements that aren't in their vision. A pop artist on the other hand would more often than not just do whatever the producer or writing team wants to get on the fads of the day and sell more.

It's not just the audience that changes, but the methodology, the marketing involved, the perception of their work by the artist, and most importantly the lack of the kind of defiance that characterized artists who'd rather lose lots of money and stay poor than compromise on their vision (or who even made a point of not selling out on purpose).

[andsoitis]

> For example, an "artistic" indie group catering to just a tiny minority is not just "as commercial" as a pop production, unless we stretch the term beyond recognition).

But that indie band is not necessarily more artistic.

[ipaddr]

Authentic is the correct word here. Authentic bands offer a realism that is opposite of the collective market driven mass media song writing.

[greatwave1]

The indie group is not necessarily more authentic either.

[coldtea]

Than mass-marketed commercial pop by commitee? Oh, yes, it will be...

[greatwave1]

I know the phrase "mass-marketed commercial pop by committee" produces a visceral reaction, but nothing about it is inherently inauthentic.

"Mass-marketed" just means that something is widely promoted. Many of the most creative, influential, and authentic musical groups are "mass-marketed".

"Commercial" doesn't really mean anything in this context, as presumably everything that you listen to on the radio/streaming services is commercial.

"Pop" is descriptive of the style of the music, not how it's produced (there are indie pop groups).

"by committee" means that multiple people contributed to it. Do you think the only valid creative process is one where somebody works in isolation? If so, that disqualifies pretty much every band / non-solo act from meeting your standards for authenticity.

[autoexec]

> "Commercial" doesn't really mean anything in this context, as presumably everything that you listen to on the radio/streaming services is commercial.

It means dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. It means being told that instead of deeply personal, complex, and potentially offensive lyrics you're just going to repeat a word or small phrase over and over and over because that sells better doesn't alienate anyone with difficult words or things that might offended them, or might discourage the use (and sale) of that song in commercials, grocery stores, overseas markets, or film soundtracks.

Commercial interests (the desire for as much money as possible at the expense of all else) overrides what would have been deliberate artistic choices in order to maximize profits leading to a landscape of homogenized bland overproduced and unchallenging art.

We've seen many changes in music as a direct result of commercial interests overriding the preferences of artists (and listeners) including the loudness wars, the end of the album as a cohesive work to favor itunes downloads of single tracks, and the lengths of songs getting shorter and shorter to the point where bridges and entire verses are removed.

Not everything you hear on the radio has been fully compromised by commercial interests, but it's a good bet compromises were made and commercial interests have had more influence over what gets heard on the radio than any other factor (talent, skill, popularity, artistry, etc.)

[msla]

Indie can be a pose. Punk can be a pose. Anything can be a pose.

If there's one thing the music world should know by now, it's that.

(Hell, one of the best-known punk groups, the Sex Pistols, was a boy band put together by Malcolm McLaren. Sid Vicious was McLaren's idea.)

[ipaddr]

They were never an indie band but they inspired other who were.

Punk doesn't mean indie.. but the simplicity of technique makes it a natural fit

[coldtea]

"Artistic" in the sense "more concerned about art" not "having more art in their results" (which can't be measured anyway).

So, like "arthouse movies". An arthouse movie could be much worse done than a mainstream good movie (like, say, the Godfather). The art in the term is not about the level of artistry, but about the approach.

[Juliate]

Commercial doesn't mean that it's for mass audiences, it just means that it sells, or that people buy.

Small or large or mass audience targeting (or not targeting) is an adjacent matter to making commerce or not.

Commerce is at root a relationship between someone who provides and someone who provides something else in return.

Artistic vision, craft, authenticity (why, how, what am I doing/saying this?) are orthogonal matters to commerce (what/how do I get in return?).