[danuker]

Show me homoiconicity used "for real". Sure, it's useful in compilers and interpreters, but how often do people need them in a business application? You will most likely use a library, and/or a syntax designed for serialization instead of programming, like JSON.

I personally vastly prefer Python's syntax over Lisp's, because the parentheses require two buttons pressed (shift + 9) instead of one (tab). That may sound trivial, but it's why I jump to Python instead of a Lisp.

That said, I do suffer from Python problems: the GIL, clunky immutable data structures like pyrsistent, poor support for shared memory for multithreading and so on.

Edit: I just realized in Lisp you could replace the built-in data structures if you wanted, so libraries like pyrsistent would require little change in client code syntax. I guess that's one example of homoiconicity in action.

Can you come up with another one? It is not very often that I find myself wanting to redefine the language I'm using (which comes with its risks: other coders and/or their tooling might find my code hard to follow).

[AlchemistCamp]

The thing that makes lisp special, IMO, is how simple the syntax is. It makes thinking about certain kinds of problems much easier than in other languages, which can do the same things. As strange as it may sound, the book that most helped me understand Elixir's macros wasn't the book devoted to teaching them, but instead it was this Clojure book: https://pragprog.com/titles/cjclojure/mastering-clojure-macr...

In reality, they work pretty much the same way in the two languages, but due to the syntax, it was easier (at least for me) to grapple with the ideas in a lisp first.

I very rarely write macros, but I sure use them all the time via the web framework and db-wrapper libraries that dominate the Elixir ecosystem and they've been useful for all the "business applications" I've worked on in the past several years.

[throw009]

Running with the json example you don't need a json library in lisp because you'd just dump an s-expression holding the data you want directly. You don't need a library to parse it because it's already in a format that lisp can understand.

Hilariously enough the project that made me switch to lisp from python as my scripting language was writing a lightweight parser for ascii delimited files - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimiter?useskin=vector#ASCII... - instead of csv files. After doing it in both I had the eureka moment of using nested s-expressions in the scheme version instead of special characters. All of a sudden I had access to a csv like file which could be arbitrarily nested and didn't require me to worry about escaping. The next mind blowing moment was when I realized I could embed the code of the parser as the header of the format as the type definition and use it to evaluate the format with the program that was used to create it.

You don't even need some deep insanity to do it just:

    (eval `(,(car ls) (cadr ls)) (interaction-environment))

It also shows why I wouldn't use lisp for everything: if I wanted to ingest a file of a known csv dialect that won't fit in memory I'd do it in C after doing the prototype/master version in lisp. I also wouldn't trust running unverified source code from the internet. But for internal projects it's better than sliced bread.

[danuker]

Well, I wrote a genetic programming library, and it was fun to parse a Lisp-like representation from Python. You still have recursion and everything (albeit no tail call optimization).

Here, `_from_source` goes from a plain array of tokens to a nested one (tree), depending on their arity:

https://github.com/danuker/symreg/blob/7c6593d3046f6c52dfb92...

S-Exps are almost valid Python. The exception is the single-element tuple which needs a comma: (x,)

But I still preferred to use Python as a programming language, and Lisp as a sort of AST. It's just easier. I am curious what roadblocks you faced in your ASCII delimited parsing.

Do you by any chance still have the two parsers? I'd love to see them. If you are worried about your anonymity, you can find my e-mail on my blog, and my website on my HN profile. I promise not to disclose your identity publicly.

[throw009]

>Here, `_from_source` goes from a plain array of tokens to a nested one (tree), depending on their arity:

You're 90% there. Lisp notation obviates the need for arity tracking, which is why in lisp + and sum are the same function:

    scheme@(guile-user)> (+)
    $416 = 0
    scheme@(guile-user)> (+ 1)
    $417 = 1
    scheme@(guile-user)> (+ 1 2)
    $418 = 3
    scheme@(guile-user)> (+ 1 2 3)
    $419 = 6

Add higher order functions, e.g. (λ (x) (x x)), and lisp notation is the simplest/only way to deal with the general case where you don't know ahead of time the arity of the function you'd be applying because of partial currying and data persistence.

As for the parsers this was 10 years ago at university. I've long since lost the source code. There weren't any problems with python, it's just that once I wrote the lisp version I realized just how useful the brackets actually are. There's a reason why every computer language is more or less context free. Lisp just takes that to its logical conclusion.

[danuker]

Well, thank you for your feedback. I don't know why I bothered with the flat list in the first place. I might rewrite this library in Clojure. And I might blog about my findings.

Cheers!

[throw009]

Some advice: move to emacs regardless of what editor you use. Evil mode is the best vi clone there is. Use paredit for any lisp like language, you are editing the sexpression tree directly, not it's incidental textual representation. Use the mode for the dialect of your choice. You will never need to exit emacs and will be able to experience the repl as it was it was meant to be.

[noloblo]

Thanks between clojure sbcl racket and scheme which is the fastest language of am lisps?

[Atlas22]

If you are referring to fastest in terms of wall & CPU time running. Without spending a lot of time optimizing your code yourself, I suspect SBCL would take the crown for vast majority of cases. If you do hyper optimize, the gap with scheme largely closes (sometime scheme wins, sometimes SBCL). So I'd go with SBCL if all else is the same feature wise to you. That said, the last serious benchmark I did of lisps was ~2010 so optimization may have changed since then and of course they were not very rigorus benchmarks (just my compute-bound workload at the time, that primarily boiled down to mostly integer ops). Debian language benchmarks game has some benchmarks written for sbcl and racket that may be good for comparing implementations yourself if interested. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

[butt___hugger]

SBCL, probably. Scheme would be a close second depending on the implementation (Chicken, Gerbil or other compile-to-C impls.) Racket and Clojure are closer in performance to scripting languages like Python.