[tptacek]

It's not what they did, according to Hersh! It's not a minor gap in the story! Hersh claims the Norwegian Navy allocated an Alta-class minesweeper to the task of operating as a diving platform for American divers. You can't say "well, maybe that's not what happened then!" and act like the story is intact. If major details in the story are false, that's a big deal!

You can absolutely still believe the US blew up the pipelines, the same way you could have before Hersh's goofy story ran. But you can't claim to believe Hersh's story while systematically dismantling all of his claims. The story itself is either true or it isn't.

I feel like a lot of people are defending this story because they've independently and axiomatically derived US culpability for the pipeline sabotage. I don't have anything to say about whether the US sabotaged the Nord Stream pipeline. But Seymour M. Hersh has, ever since 2006, been a nutbag, and this story he's telling makes no sense. That's a much more interesting thing to discuss than our rooting interests in geopolitics!

If you think he's right about the particulars, and this analysis is wrong about those particulars, say why! That's an interesting discussion to have!

[IIAOPSW]

To play some devils advocate, is it possible for either Hersh or the supposed source changed some of the more superfluous details to obfuscate exactly what they know and who could have leaked it? Not trying to root for anyone or be an America-bad type here. Just having a hard time believing that the specific delivery vehicle used is anything more than a pedantic detail for future historians.

[maybelsyrup]

> independently and axiomatically derived culpability

> ever since 2006, been a nutbag

[rjzzleep]

I really needed to know if tptacek was somehow mixing in some ad homimem attacks to discredit the author.

Two things I found interesting that I didn't know and found fascinating is that western countries would give the US in modern age jurisdiction over their territory. I get how it happens in Japan or Germany that were occupied due to their role in WWII.

It's also worth noting that part of the reason why Iran had a revolution was especially due to the fact that there was no jurisdiction over crimes Americans did.

But why would a western nation sign such a thing in 2022?

I think we can also agree that if they had any hint of Russia doing it(which is an absurd theory to begin with given that they ARE the tap), it would have been blowing into extraordinary proportions. They fact that the story quietly died is a quite telling by itself.

Let's also remember for a moment that both NS1 and 2 were actually built on request of the Germans.

Let's also not forget that there had been an incident with an explosive laden drone in 2015 near the pipeline. Previous discussion from HN

https://www.pipeline-journal.net/news/explosive-laden-drone-...

[moremetadata]

https://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/1579608838118191105 Gazprom just released these photos of a NATO Seafox drone that was found right next to Nord Stream 1 in 2015.

Nato Seafox Drone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafox_drone#/media/File:Seafo...

Nordstream sections that were attacked were at a depth of 80-110metres. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_pipeline_sabo....

In May 2021 the worlds first wireless underwater drone was available for sale which operates at depths of upto 100mtres. https://www.hydromea.com/exray-wireless-underwater-drone

Maybe these could be used to monitor the pipeline in a semi autonomous fashion in future?

[astro19238_]

Yes. I agree. I'm just not sure some faulty details makes all of it untrue.

However it's hard to be sure because it works both ways. I.e. veryfieng some details don't make the whole thing true.

I havent made up my mind, and I don't think I will.

But it would surprise me if Biden did it if only for the millions of people half starving because of it.