[ccn0p]

what's crazy to me is how terrible of a track record big pharma has in being even moderately uncorrupted, and yet when it comes to vaccines, sprinkle in a bit of fear and suddenly we're supposed to trust their studies and superbowl commercials.

[pdntspa]

I would think that, with the number of people who received it, any issues would have been sussed out by now

[logicalmonster]

> I would think that, with the number of people who received it, any issues would have been sussed out by now

A large sample size means less if the problems are longer-term in nature such as an increase in cancer rates down the road or problems with fertility, which might take more time to fully detect and understand.

And a large sample size means little without a control group: yet if some people had their way, there'd be no control group left.

[TMWNN]

ranitidine was a very, very, very widely used drug. Yet it took 40 years!

[refurb]

This!

Look at the COX-2 inhibitors as well. They were on the market for almost a decade before the increased risk of heart attack popped up in the data.

[marcinzm]

Exactly.

If you on principle refuse to take any medication or vaccine due to the fact that they almost all have rare, unstudied or potential side effects then that's totally fair. The human body is a very complex thing and every single one of us is different so it's basically impossible to truly know if a drug will have no rare side effects for some sub group. Or at least do extensive deep research on every single medication you take including supplements and over the counter things.

If you only do this for the covid vaccine due to reading too much fearmongering then that just means you're irrational.

[MichaelZuo]

How is this relevant to the parent comment?

Every pill of ranitidine would undergo this process in storage, if I understand correctly. Yet it took 40 years for it to finally be confirmed.

[TMWNN]

>Every pill of ranitidine would undergo this process in storage, if I understand correctly. Yet it took 40 years for it to finally be confirmed.

Even worse, I have taken ranitidine that I had in storage (not in heat) for more than a year! So this news is all the more alarming.

[RobotToaster]

That doesn't account for long term side effects, that may only be seen years, or decades, later.

Of course, catching covid may also have unknown long term side effects, like how some who caught Spanish flu went on to develop encephalitis lethargica.

Vaccinated or not you're part of what is effectively the largest post marketing clinical study, either as the treatment or control group. Science is fun like that.

[themitigating]

Since the vast majority of medicine produced isn't like this situation how do they have bad track record.

Also each company is independent.

[lostlogin]

They have a bad track record. Look at the controversy section of their wiki, and this is just for GSK.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSK_plc

[themitigating]

And? If 95% of the medicine released didn't turn out to be a mistake or the company lied why wouldn't you trust the company.

All you're doing is saying that bad things happened instead of comparing it to the number of non bad things.

[lostlogin]

The one hell of an argument. The upside of it is that nearly every terrible thing seems a lot less bad.

[jjeaff]

Except we aren't just trusting the pharma companies. In the case of COVID vaccines, it is one of the most broadly studied things on the planet at this point.

If we had this much money and this many eyes on studying and testing Zantac, I have no doubt they wouldn't have been able to keep the cancer risks secret.

[throwaway29812]

Exactly. COVID vaccines are the most studied medical treatment in the world. No one is asking you to blindly trust anyone, but if you are going to question something, be aware of the amount of work being done to either prove or disprove claims.

[hammock]

What risks have all those studies found in COVID vaccines?

[marcinzm]

The big ones where Johnson & Johnson/Janssen had a risk of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome to the point of being effectivelly discontinued. Pfizer and Moderna also have a risk of myocarditis. There's also plenty of other studies covering the various other risks such as https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/.

Which can all be found after 30 seconds of Googling or simply by paying attention to all the news these got over the last few years.

[Analemma_]

The thrombosis was reported by the exact medical authorities that antivaxxers claim are hushing up the truth, using the exact diagnostic and reporting system they claim doesn’t work. The system worked exactly as intended.

The myocarditis is caused by the same spike proteins that are in the virus itself, and the relative risk of myocarditis from an actual Covid infection versus the vaccine is many times higher.

Which can all be found after 30 seconds of Googling or simply by paying attention to all the news these got over the last few years.

[jjeaff]

Yes. It boggles my mind that the simple fact that the spike protein seems to cause the myocarditis and all the anti-vaxers can't seem to put 2 and 2 together that a full on infection of COVID all over your body is going to be orders of magnitude worse for that exact same symptom. And that's not even taking into account the myriad of other negative side effects of a severe COVID infection.

[wewtyflakes]

Okay, and what about the risks associated with getting covid? I'll take the vaccine.

[throwaway29812]

Extremely low instances of complications. The same complications exist in far higher rates with COVID itself.

[hammock]

What complications?

>The same complications exist in far higher rates with COVID itself.

Is that relevant if most people who get the jab also later get covid?

[marcinzm]

>Is that relevant if most people who get the jab also later get covid?

You do realize that the whole point of a vaccine is to either prevent or improve the symptoms of a disease right? So if you're nearly guaranteed to get covid then you definitely want to suffer a smaller number of complications from a vaccine and then reduced post-vaccine covid complications versus the much worse complications of un-vaccinated covid. The math is different if you're unlikely to catch covid but as you admit yourself that isn't the case nowadays.

[blindriver]

As mentioned by the CDC, boys between the ages of 12-17 have a much higher risk of getting myocarditis from the COVID vaccine (about 1 in 5000), and this risk diminishes as you get older. No one knows why, and no one appears to be studying why.

[Willish42]

> No one knows why, and no one appears to be studying why.

This is so false. Took literally one Google search to find a study about "why" and the relationship to myocarditis and Covid 19: https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-...

Viral infections are one of the top causes for myocarditis. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...

Vaccines work by stimulating one's immune system response in ways similar to infection, they are literally designed to trigger the same immuno response in a safe way to prevent severe illness from future exposure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

[blindriver]

I mentioned the vaccine, and you're talking about COVID-19, which is not what I was talking about.

> Vaccines work by stimulating one's immune system response in ways similar to infection

Wrong. This is not how the MRNA vaccine works. The only thing that the MRNA vaccines produce is the spike protein, and it's bound with an additional part so that even the spike protein can't be active. It doesn't deliver the same immune response as it does from a COVID 19 infection at all.

All of which doesn't answer the question why are 12-17 year olds suffering a 1 in 5000 chance of getting myocarditis from the vaccine?

[jjeaff]

Myocarditis was only found to be slightly higher in 12-17 year olds with the moderna vaccine. The Pfizer and others did not. Presumably because Pfizer is a lower dose. But of course, this is all moot because myocarditis is usually mild and does not require hospitalization and there are myriad of other symptoms that you can get from COVID. Its not as if myocarditis is the only negative side effect of catching COVID.

[mikeyouse]

Just because you don’t know why doesn’t mean “no one knows why”. Myocarditis is a well known risk factor in vaccines and the Covid studies explicitly tested different dosages to determine the lowest effective dose to minimize that risk.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT04405076

It’s pretty impressive how weird antivaxxers have convinced millions of people to not take vaccines based on their ignorance of the subject but here we are.

[blindriver]

No it's not a well known risk factor at all. Especially not the likes of 1 in 5000, and there's no explanation why it's only affected kids 12-17 and it decreases to almost nil as one gets older.

[sophacles]

What do you mean by "knows why"? Seriously - there's "no one knows why and can't point to anything at all that my be related", and there's "...and we don't know why the xyz protein doesn't match our models and we're not sure what's going on in the 4890th pair of the dna that generates it"?

Both fit "no one knows why" - and that's the problem with such statements.

[marcinzm]

If you're that concerned about things doctor's don't know about medication side effects then you probably shouldn't take any medicine ever. Almost every single one of them has some random side effect or risk that no one has yet figured out the exact mechanism for. Most aren't even quantified in random studies but simply noted and then utterly ignored. The vaccines being studied so much is why we have actual data on these rare side effects unlike most medications.