[giobox]

There's often a wise tradeoff between criticizing systems you've just seen after being at the company 5 minutes and actually spending some time at the company to learn the historical context of why the thing you think is insane/shit is insane/shit before telling everyone who built it how insane/shit it is.

People generally don't wake up in the morning and go into work motivated to make insane/shit things - context, tech debt and business realities all mount up and even the best of us can end up making choices that in isolation look crazy.

There are of course companies who are really bad and you may well be right, but so many times I have seen in my career a young new hire storm in and think everything is shit without paying heed to the context and historical pressures. The best thing you can do in many cases is spend the first ~six months at a new tech company trying to understand that context, and indeed I think more mature engineers generally do.

[Buttons840]

> There's often a wise tradeoff between criticizing systems you've just seen after being at the company 5 minutes and waiting 6 months to understand the context.

I know this is reasonable advice, but it makes me deeply cynical. After 6 months I will have learned to live in the shit (to use your term), and so it still seems like I have nothing to gain by speaking up or trying to fix things. A culture that accepts shitty code probably isn't supper demanding for an experienced developer who is accustom to the mess, so I'll just coast through my time and hop jobs after a few years.

If nobody wants to respectfully talk about my criticisms on day one, then they wont really want to at 6 months either. In the end I'm lead to believe I should have zero concern for code quality and only worry about my personal reputation.

[AA-BA-94-2A-56]

This is exactly where I am at right now. I have a million dollar mortgage and interest rates are going up. I'm keeping my head down and perpetuating technical debt until I can hop jobs for a higher salary.

Criticising the status quo is not a winning move for me, especially when it's lead to the company's engineering team tripling in size. If I'm asked, I'll pick some low hanging fruit– remove reliance on legacy/redundant JavaScript libraries such as jQuery, and spent time writing better unit tests. But so far I haven't been asked.

[chaps]

You (in fashion of the article) missed the point I made: I was explicitly asked to speak up as the new employee and when I did I was told to stop speaking up. When I brought it up in the meeting I gave my two week notice, he admitted to saying that and apologized.

[dec0dedab0de]

That's some bullshit. you did the right thing. When a new employee joins and notices that something sucks the answer should be something like these:

We know, but haven't had time to fix it, maybe we'll assign that to you when you're caught up.

We didn't think of it that way, good catch, lets go into detail later.

Yeah, but doing it this way makes this other thing easier, we'll show you that when you're ready.

or even: I don't know, my brain is fried with this project, can you ask again in a few months?

[whats_a_quasar]

I get what you're saying, but this is exactly how deviances are normalized. When you've been with the company for a long time and are familiar with the history, it's easy to rationalize why things are the way they are and that they can't be improved. You can explain something that's crazy with context and historical pressure.

Dan's point is that sometimes the new person's judgement is correct, and there actually is a real problem that's invisible to people who have been with the project a long time. But the new person's judgment is basically always ignored, and that's a mistake - it ought to be weighted heavily because they legitimately have a perspective that insiders no longer have.

If instead you spend six months trying to understand the context:

"new person joins

new person: WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF

old hands: yeah we know we're concerned about it

new person: WTF WTF wTF wtf wtf w...

new person gets used to it

new person #2 joins

new person #2: WTF WTF WTF WTF

new person: yeah we know. we're concerned about it."

I'm sympathetic because my first company was a mid-stage startup with huge structural problems in the engineering org structure and processes. When I joined I had frequent "WTF" moments and had a similar experience where experienced people would explain to me why things are the way they are. So I trusted them, and put my head down, but eventually got frustrated and left. A few months later the company went bankrupt because they couldn't build product fast enough, investors lost patience, and they couldn't raise another round.

[Buttons840]

> the new person's judgment is basically always ignored, and that's a mistake

Remember, the new person has something that nobody else on the team can ever learn, no matter how much they study or how long they work. The new person has a fresh perspective.

[a4isms]

"Making good decisions, therefore, requires understanding past decisions. Without knowing how things came to be, it’s easy to make things worse."

—https://thoughtbot.com/blog/chestertons-fence

[chaps]

I was once told this after raising the issue that "hey maybe an API that responds with root ssh passwords is a bad idea, and our clients are going to be pissed once they find out." And.. I was right.

So often, citing Chesterton's fence is significantly more naive than what it attempts to criticize.

[a4isms]

How is being right about wanting to make a change a refutation of the idea that knowing why people made a decision in the past is an excellent idea? Nothing about Chesterton's Fence asserts that people in the past always made good decisions, nor does it assert that perhaps what was a good decision then is a bad decision today.

It simply asserts that understanding why a thing is the way it is is valuable when making a decision to change it.

That understanding could be as simple as--to take a real world example that most readers here will remember--"They chose to install a hidden web server on the user's system, because they felt it was the best way to deliver user convenience given the resources and time the team had available."

We can still say it was a bone-headed choice to do that because it opened a massive back door to every user's system. And? What is the problem with looking into why they made that choice before arguing that the choice should be reversed with maximum prejudice?

Chesterton's Fence isn't a suggestion that no changes should be proposed, or that if you look into the original motivations you will change your proposal. Think of it as insurance against the possibility that every once in a while, you will discover a requirement that needs to be addressed with your suggested change.

I don't see where you're coming from that quoting Chesterton's Fence is even "criticism." It's a suggestion to take out a little insurance by doing a little homework.

[lmm]

> Nothing about Chesterton's Fence asserts that people in the past always made good decisions, nor does it assert that perhaps what was a good decision then is a bad decision today.

> It simply asserts that understanding why a thing is the way it is is valuable when making a decision to change it.

The second assertion is implicitly an assertion that decisions made in the past are, if not always good, at least good enough often enough to be worth understanding. In my experience that's not true; most of the time it's just something someone did without really thinking about it.

[a4isms]

Let's distinguish two different assertions:

1. The decision in the past was sensible at the time given what the people making that decision knew/believed/were incentivized to optimize for, versus;

2. It's worth knowing what was on their mind when they made the decision.

I think the two are independent. It could be that there is no good reason for a choice people made, but it's still helpful to look into whether they had a reason, and not just assume there was no good reason without looking into it. I personally think assuming there's no good reason for a decision without looking into it is "picking up nickels off of railroad tracks."

You save a little time if you don't try to find out whether there was a reason, and most of the time your hunch that there was no good reason will be correct. And some of the time, if there was a good reason, it no longer applies, so you are saving time not looking into that reason.

But once in a while, there was a good reason and it reflects some constraint or requirement that is still relevant. It doesn't mean you can't change the thing, but it does mean that you should address the constraint or requirement as part of your proposed change.

If you never look into the reason, once in a while you will miss something. Another comments suggested "move fast and break things," i.e. Make the change and if something breaks, fix it then. That's a strategy too, but some things don't work that way. For example, some code might fix a bug that applies to one valuable customer, and if you change the code without knowing about the bug fix, you will find out about it via an irate customer.

In some cases, the cost of an irate customer once in a while is much bigger than all the time saved not looking into things. Or maybe it's a security thing, in which case one vulnerability might be extremely expensive to deal with.

I agree with you that not all decisions made in the past are worth taking into account when making changes, but in my n=1 experience looking into things is cheap insurance against the times when there is a hidden requirement or constraint that has material impact on your business. And when I frame it in my mind as insurance, I don't mind looking into 99 things that turn out to be immaterial: The 1 time it is material makes all 100 investigations worthwhile for me.

[sokoloff]

It seems more strange to conclude that the person with the new idea to tear down the fence is so frequently a better thinker than not only the original builders of the fence but also the other people who came along and didn’t tear down that useless fence.

Yes, that is sometimes the case, but not often enough in my estimation to skip the step of trying to understand why that fence is there.

[chaps]

  We can still say it was a bone-headed choice to do that because it opened a massive back door to every user's system. And? What is the problem with looking into why they made that choice before arguing that the choice should be reversed with maximum prejudice?

Because I was suggesting a different method for the specific task at-hand.

  I don't see where you're coming from that quoting Chesterton's Fence is even "criticism." It's a suggestion to take out a little insurance by doing a little homework. 

Every time I've heard someone quote Chesterton's Fence, it's always been as a means to halt the conversation. Essentially, "shutup" -- an indirect critique of critique itself in dismissive form. There's possibly some meta point here about you not knowing the full circumstances of the situation to warrant bringing up Chesterton's fence.

[a4isms]

> Every time I've heard someone quote Chesterton's Fence, it's always been as a means to halt the conversation.

From here forward you can say that almost every time you've heard someone quote Chesterton's Fence, it's almost always been as a means to halt the conversation.

Today, you've encountered a counter-example, and a very firm counter-example, at that. To my mind, Chesterton's Fence is explicitly NOT about shutting down a conversation. It's an invitation to continue the conversation with more information to validate your suggested course of action.

No different than if an engineer suggests, "We should rewrite this code to be faster." What team lead or product manager wouldn't ask, "Is this a bottleneck? Have you profiled it? Do we know there are users impacted by this code's performance?"

Or if someone suggests building a bespoke feature flag service. "Have you done a build vs. buy analysis? What alternatives have you considered before choosing this design? Are there any OSS solutions that are close enough to our requirements?"

These kinds of responses shouldn't be uttered as a way of shutting down a conversation. If that's someone's intent, they are abusing their privilege.

The right way to use any of these patterns is to say them in good faith, and then socialize amongst the team the standard of preparation the team expects of someone proposing a non-trivial change.

Over time, the need to say such things decreases because the team internalizes what preparation/rigor/justification is needed for proposing changes, and does the work ahead of suggesting changes.

Whereas, if the tone and intent is to block change, the team goes down a toxic path where people are discouraged from suggesting improvements of any kind. If that's what you've encountered, you have my sympathy and I can complete understand why you might be wary of people quoting Chesterton's Fence.

[chaps]

  These kinds of responses shouldn't be uttered as a way of shutting down a conversation. If that's someone's intent, they are abusing their privilege. 

To be perfectly honest, your quote came across in that spirit. Anywho, peace!

[justin_oaks]

I agree. Chesterton's fence doesn't mean that if you don't know why the fence is there, don't ever move it, under any conditions. It means try to find out why it's there before moving it.

In many cases in my career, I've seen code that doesn't make sense or seems like a bad idea. The person who could explain why it's there has long left the company. Am I afraid and leave the screwy stuff there, while citing Chesteron's fence? Hell no. I'll change it to do the right thing. This results in either exposing the reason why it's there, or showing that it really was unnecessary/bad. If something breaks from the change then it's good that I can finally document what wasn't documented before. So either way it's a win.

[a4isms]

I readily accept that this strategy has worked for you. In my particular case, I work with customers and software where making a change, pushing it to production, and finding out that I missed a key requirement when it breaks is sometimes unacceptably consequential.

But that may not be true for everyone. If making changes and seeing what does or doesn't break is a successful strategy for you, go for it.

[aidenn0]

I can think of a dozen reasons why such an API might exist. Chesterton's fence doesn't say "don't make changes" it says "If you can't think of why something might exist, you are not qualified to say that it shouldn't exist."

[chaps]

I never said I didn't understand why the API existed.

[aidenn0]

Then Chesterton's fence doesn't apply. People wrongly using arguments to enforce blind conservatism doesn't make the underlying arguments wrong...

[chaps]

Then we agree!!

[Ma8ee]

The problem is that the historical context of a decision often becomes a defence of the status quo, even when most people understand it is bad.