[Nursie]

I think it's fair to say that 20 years ago, discussions around CSAM were a lot less developed than they are today in a variety of ways.

There were a lot more people much more ready to publicly make (IMHO terrible) arguments about how a jpg is just a stream of bits, which is a number, and you can't just arbitrarily ban specific large integers. Or about how nobody is harmed if streams of bits get passed around, it's just data, ones and zeroes, that's not harming anyone. Or that the data is encoded, so it's meaningless without a decoder, a different decoder could decode that bitstream into literally anything else.

Fundamentally these arguments were always pretty nasty and meritless. It's images/video of kids being raped, the continued existence and trading of which can be argued to do continuing harm to the victims. The accessibility of this stuff also goes some way to normalise the behaviour and create bubbles in which there is demand for new material, so more kids get abused.

Ideas of children being unable to consent were well established in law and society though, it was only 20 years ago, so that bit about consent does stick out considerably. But again in certain corners of the internet * there were people who would argue about it, you hope theoretically.

( * and not that obscure, pretty sure you could find this sort of stuff in the comments on slashdot back in that sort of time-period)

[msm_]

> It's images/video of kids being raped, the continued existence and trading of which can be argued to do continuing harm to the victims.

I don't think that's what the author is saying. They say that IF any real world kids are involved in the "production" of the video, the image is illegal (have a bad "colour"). Nobody disagrees with that, especially not the author of that blog post. This is contrasted with drawn or rendered images that were created in a computer graphic program.

> Or about how nobody is harmed if streams of bits get passed around, it's just data, ones and zeroes, that's not harming anyone. Or that the data is encoded, so it's meaningless without a decoder, a different decoder could decode that bitstream into literally anything else.

That's exactly what the author is arguing againts - he says that this is a naive interpretation of computer person, that makes no sense to a lawyer (in his words: color is not a function of bits).

I think CSAM is too sensitive topic to use it an example (today, maybe 20 years ago it was different). So my version of that example for 2023: watching and distributing (adult) rape videos is morally abhorrent and often illegal. But porn websites are full of staged rape videos. It's not about the content of the video, but its source (colour).

...that was my explanation of the thought process of the author. As he mentions, not everyone agrees with that interpretation in that context.

[Nursie]

Sure, and I’m not trying to put words in the author’s mouth here. I wanted to give some ‘historical’ context for those who may not have been around back then.

But I think it’s either a sincere mistake or a very poor attitude to bring up consent affecting the colour in relation to CSAM, which they explicitly do about a third of the way into the article.

[throw009]

The internet was just colonised by bland NPCs and everyone interesting is now on the dark web. The reason why you don't see them here today is the same reason why you didn't see them in the NYT in 2003, you can't make money off ads when you're out of the Overton window.

[Nursie]

It's hard to express how much I disagree with that position, given the context.

Contrarianism isn't interesting purely for its own sake, especially in relation to child abuse. And the internet is full of voices who are knee-jerk contrarian for the pure sake of it. Most of what they have to say is meaningless noise.

[throw009]

That I was kids to stop being out on the sex offered registry for playing doctor isn't being contrarian, it's common sense.

The only people who think that we should keep busting teens by the truckload for sexting are closeted pedophiles.

[Nursie]

Very nice straw man there.

[deadbeeves]

It sounds like you're dismissing the arguments purely by what you think it would mean to consider them seriously. "If these arguments are valid, then these conclusions are valid. These conclusions should not be valid. Therefore the arguments are invalid."

Why is it untenable that yes, data is data and it should move freely, and no, children should not be raped and filmed?

[Nursie]

Well, because of the effects stated in the post you’re responding to.

It’s a source of continuing harm to the person who has been abused, and it creates bubbles of acceptance which go on to encourage creation of more material.

We have moved past the somewhat myopic “it’s just ones and zeroes” view of this in general, as a society. Actions have consequences, even actions as simple as exchanging a specific large integer with another computer.

[seanhunter]

One infamous example

   “There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.” - Richard Stallman 2013[1]

…although he did later retract that view.

[1] quoted here and elsewhere. Can’t search for the original right now https://thenextweb.com/news/free-software-icon-richard-stall...