[pelasaco]

> it's not colonial

What a lazy answer! for sure, it is colonial. During the imperial time, during soviet time and now in the east of Ukraine. In all periods, Russia tried to destroy the local population/settlements and tried to build Cossak/Russian defense lines.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism

[sushzbdbehsh]

the Soviets liberated those colonised under the tsarists

[qaq]

If by liberated you mean killed 10s of millions and forced erased cultures and languages sure

[sushzbdbehsh]

no i dont

[weberer]

You call this liberated?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

[pelasaco]

as they are liberating Ukraine right now from Nazis.. right.

[sushzbdbehsh]

because a famine has never occured before in the history of civilisation

[mananaysiempre]

You have to admit, a famine in the region’s foremost exporter of grain, whose main export of that year was grain, takes spectacular mismanagement and neglect. That’s Soviet industrialization for you. I have to admit the genocide part makes no sense to me, though—I’ve seen no evidence that it was in any way targeted at Ukrainians specifically, only that they constituted a huge portion of the agricultural population at the time.

You don’t have to look that hard to find actual displaced peoples—the way the Russian Empire burned down all of Ossetia, the way Stalin ejected most of the population of Chechnya after that, the way Crimean Tatars constituted the bulk of the population in the Crimean peninsula and then suddenly Russians and Ukrainians did for some reason—there’s plenty. (If you really want to get into the history, care to find some speakers of the North Slavic languages for me?) It’s that the example does not seem to be a good one.

[sushzbdbehsh]

it was collectivisation not industrialisation, there were droughts in Ukraine 3 years in a row, there was an epidemic, the kulaks were sabotaging farming

[mananaysiempre]

I meant industrialization as a general government direction, not as an official Party policy buzzword: the Soviet state just did not care about the agricultural population except as a potential source of workers for the industry. The droughts and the epidemic still did not stop the grain exports (again, the main source of income for the state before, during, and after the famine, even per the official statistics) or affect the food supply in the cities all that much. The amounts an agricultural worker could legally leave for themselves were below subsistence, for years both before and after the war—steal (“steal”), escape to the city, or die.

The last part is so much bullshit thst it isn’t even really worth considering. (Every sentence in the whole of official Soviet history that includes the word kulak is bullshit.)

[weberer]

>Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by the European Parliament,[4][32] Ukraine[33] alongside 22 countries, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet regime.[34]

[sushzbdbehsh]

now do the bit about academic debate

[weberer]

Please enlighten us then.