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by alar44 1221 days ago
If you think 90k is shit, you should really consider not living in NYC, LA, of SF. 90k in most non metropolis cities is upper middle class.
3 comments

Most people that live in a HCOL city cannot just move to a LCOL city and get paid the same - you think they've never considered that?

The point of using the national average is that we can compare it to other careers. If we compare game devs to other software development positions they get paid significantly less on average. The BLS puts software engineers at an average of $109k for 2021 (couldn't find 2022 stats, not sure if they exist yet?)[1]. That means game devs make 20+% less on average compared to their non-game counterparts.

1: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/...

Well what would you expect? The work is significantly simpler, and the conditions are much better. So… wait. That’s not quite right. Hmmm.

Try again. What would you expect? The value to the employer is significantly lower because each developers contribution is… No wait.

Tell me again how this capitalism thing works because I get confused?

Supply impacts wages. More people want to be game devs per open position than want to be non-game devs per open position.
Right, right. So it’s just supply and demand. So here in Australia where the number of surgeon positions are constrained by a centralised body, supply outstrips demand quite a bit. Let me google the old market at work!

Googling… Hmmm…

Are you sure this thing is working?

Surgeons and game devs are not comparable. There's no free market in medicine in most countries as the doctors have formed their own cartel/union which decides who gets to be let in and under which conditions and without membership to that tribe you cannot practice.
So why doesn’t every group with valuable skills form similar cartels? Why isn’t there some “game dev” certification body to achieve the same?

Now I understand what this Chartered Professional Engineer thing is all about! It’s a license to print money by controlling supply! I want in!

> are constrained by a centralised body

> supply outstrips demand quite a bit

How does that follow? It is constrained therefore supply is artifically lowered. No matter the demand, no one can supply more doctors than the body permits, therefore the price for each is quite high.

Not demand for the services, that’s high. Supply of talented humans for the role is much much greater than the positions available. So based on the aforementioned logic; lots of competition for limited spots should reduce the wages paid right?
Your pay is defined by your colleagues and potential colleagues, and unrelated to the value you provide
Kyoto isn't really a LCOL area either.
yeah but you get to live in Kyoto
And deal with one of the most tourist-packed cities in the world with some awful commutes.

Buses just aren’t worth riding when tourism is high (you’ll be waiting forever with dozens in line ahead of you and then stuck in traffic) and the train routes aren’t nearly as convenient as a lot of other Japanese cities.

$90k is shit even in low cost of living cities [in the US]. A nice car and insurance is $15k/year. Groceries have doubled or tripled in cost.

If you mean, like, Bangkok, then sure.

"Shit" is an overstatement. If a nice car and insurance is 15k, rent is 1500 bucks a month (so 18k a year), and groceries are 10k a year (and that's double the average), that's a total of 43k a year. Add in health insurance for what, 5k a year (if you're making 90k, insurance shouldn't be more than 400 bucks a month)? 90k yearly is ~67k a year after federal taxes. After all of the necessary expenses, you're left with 17k left over. Student loan payments probably cut into that, but that's still a significant sum of money. This is especially true if you can cut that rent down, or don't drive a super nice car, or have a smaller insurance payment through your workplace, etc.
That $17k surplus assumes that this person will be doing nothing remotely fun with their lives. Add even a modest amount of travel, movies, reataurants, bars, etc., and that money disappears quickly.
I'm not saying it's exceptional pay, but if you're even considering leisure travel you're not getting "shit pay."
That's only 17k net a year left over before savings, travel, or restaurants.

Going out to eat almost anywhere decent is a hundred bucks these days.

$1500 a month is not a reasonable assumption for monthly housing overhead even in a low CoL location. Also mortgage interest rates are much higher now.

If 1,400 a month for non-necessities isn't considered good, I struggle to see what a reasonable definition of "good" is.

1,500 is perfectly reasonable for a low cost of living area. I currently pay 1,800 a month (and that includes electric, which also powers my heat) in a state that most consider to be one of the highest costs of living in the US. For that amount of money, I could be renting a standalone house in much of the country.

I also think that your assertion of going out to eat costing 100 bucks is inaccurate. Many decent restaurants have entrées in the 18-25 dollar range. Add in a beer and an appetizer, plus a 30% tip, and you still only hit 65 dollars (assuming the app/entree cost 40 bucks combined and the beer costs 10, which is a high estimate).

All of this also assumes that you drive a nice car, a luxury that most wouldn't consider a necessity. The 15k number assumes 1250 combined for car payments and insurance, a number which many would consider much too high.

Is it the most glamorous life? No. But calling it "shit pay" is a massive overreach. If you can afford a solid car, your own place, all the necessities, and still have 1400 bucks to play with, I would consider that a pretty solid life. Certainly above "shit."

$100 for one person eating out?? I feel like even at a nice sit down place in San Francisco when I visited late last year I was paying much less than that.

In low cost of living / mid cost of living (LCOL/MCOL) areas you can definitely eat out for two at a decent place for less than that. Pricing out for two at my favorite local Italian place in San Antonio, here's the bill:

$15 - spaghetti with homemade meat sauce

$16 - penne arrabiatta

$20 - wine

Pad 28% for tax and tip and you come out to ~$65.

On San Antonio Zillow, I'm finding almost 200 results for 2 bedrooms at $1200 or less per month.

I don't think San Antonio is even the lowest LCOL location you could find, by far. Even in Texas, not looking outside the state, El Paso's way cheaper, maybe Corpus Christi.

I think people often overestimate how much it costs to live quite well in a LCOL area.

the median income in the US is ~35k. 90k in a low cost of living city is a ton. Nationally 90k put you almost into the top 20%.
Median household income in the US is 70k. 90k income for an individual isn't shit for any city let alone lower cost ones.