[l33t233372]

> because we had no bugs in our software and there was no drama for the business to get what it wanted and needed

I’m confused here. The business needed your software to have bugs for the drama? Surely this isn’t the whole story.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

When the org that I was working for was doing TSP (https://segoldmine.ppi-int.com/node/67631), our coach told me a story about another team and an engineer I knew very well. He got high praise for all the late nights and weekends he worked to get a product out the door. But on analysis of what he was working on and the bugs he had to deal with, if he had taken the TSP approach that my team was using, most of those bugs would never have been created in the first place and the product would have been finished much sooner.

Drama gets noticed, just quietly ticking along, producing high-quality output really doesn't.

[ryandrake]

Exactly. I've worked at software companies where the executives wouldn't believe any work was being done unless they could visibly see activity, and hear the "buzz" of "people doing things" and feel the drama of production emergencies and heroics. It felt like they were listening for intense movie-like typing on keyboards, watching for theatrics in front of whiteboards, project leads calling for standups, and so on. Those were the teams truly DoingThings™ and those teams were rewarded for their performance art. The team silently plugging away at their desks in chat, while they calmly deployed another build that passed all test automation--I'm not sure if leadership even knew who they were.

EDIT: These folks almost certainly overlap with the ones pining for Return To Office instead of remote work: They miss the "hum" and "buzz" of SeriousBusiness™ happening all around them in the physical office.

[PaulKeeble]

Its exactly this. Their approach produced lots of weekends and late nights and broken releases and they could be seen to be fixing things and responding like lightening to every issue. My team on the other hand was 9 to 5, everything just worked when we released it with few bugs and we and the business worked like normal human beings. The problem is that its invisible and there are no heroics, its just good solid engineering. Which considering it was a back end system for a bank is the right way for things to be.

Management likes people who make heroic effort even if they are the cause of needing it they are visibly working hard even if they are making less progress.

[pkolaczk]

Management also often doesn't track the amount of drama products created by "fast" teams cause later in production. Because the negative impact is often delayed, those problems are rarely attributed to the original authors of the code, who often move to new projects by that time. I've seen it so many times: a "hero" gets praised for writing a software component in a day and putting it into production quickly, despite a massive evidence showing that the maintenance of the previous N projects done by that person turned out to be literally a PITA and a constant source of drama later.

I'd love to see engineering bonuses / promotions work similar to how hiring bonuses work. You don't get a hiring bonus immediately when you recommend a new hire, but you get it once the new hire stays for N months. You shouldn't get a bonus/praise/promotion for just delivering software quickly. You should get it after it runs consistently and painlessly in production for N months.

[wwweston]

Management can be assured of worker productivity by evidence of activity or evidence of output.

In some situations (probably a lot of software engineering situations) output is difficult to measure, and so the habit of tuning in to activity is adopted instead. Some may even forget the difference.

[JohnFen]

> output is difficult to measure

But in software engineering, it isn't difficult to measure at all. We're developing a deliverable. You can measure if the deliverable happens on time and with acceptable quality.

[californical]

Not exactly. Your approach works if everyone knows ahead-of-time the exact amount of effort that something will take. In software, it’s rarely the case that a project complexity is fully understood from the beginning; at best, you can make a ballpark estimate.

If you have a rock solid approach and design a system with little drama, which is released on time and with high quality, then you look like it wasn’t a very ambitious project. Or easier than expected. Maybe your team padded the estimates a lot and didn’t need to work that hard.

If you are putting in late nights and weekends and constantly fighting to get features working, maybe management thinks that the project was way harder than expected. They’re so lucky to have someone as hardworking as you or this project never would’ve been done!

Obviously there is a flaw in the logic — it’s possible that those assumptions are correct, and person 1 really was under-ambitious and person 2 is an incredible and dedicated engineer working on crazy hard problems. But it’s also possible that the first engineer was just better, and the second had terrible system design skills and constant spaghetti code that made a simple project seem complex.

It can be really hard to tell the difference. Even if both end up delivering on time, the second looks more ambitious, like they’re taking on harder problems.

[JohnFen]

> Your approach works if everyone knows ahead-of-time the exact amount of effort that something will take.

No, it really doesn't require that. But we're getting into the topic of project planning, which is a larger subject than we can tackle in the comments here. Fortunately, this is a topic discussed in great detail elsewhere.

> But it’s also possible that the first engineer was just better, and the second had terrible system design skills and constant spaghetti code that made a simple project seem complex.

Right, I was intending to cover that with my "acceptable quality" conditional.

[l33t233372]

Where is project planning discussed well, in your opinion?

[JohnFen]

I have no single source. I only meant that this is a topic that is widely covered, and collectively with greater depth than is appropriate in this thread. Read widely on this topic, and don't focus just on one perspective. That way, needed nuance can be retained.

[T-Winsnes]

It comes down to "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", if you sit quietly in the corner and get things done, and there are no problems with the work you do. You will be invisible to everyone outside those you work with directly.

The person to makes a lot of noise, good or bad, is noticed

Everyone say they want well engineered solutions, but in practice it's not what makes an impact.

[duncan-donuts]

I think OP was trying to say something like, "Management replaced our team because we were quiet and didn't rally around problems like other teams". I do think it was poorly worded and a bit jaded.