[anonzzzies]

Ah the HN echo chamber again! Please visit your local non FAAAM (or what it is now?) fortune 1000, pick a senior dev randomly and work with them for week. Chatgpt is vastly better now, today. Faster, does not need sleep, rest, politeness or handholding, can explain itself (sure it’s wrong often but less wrong than the dev you picked while actually being able to use proper syntax and grammar, unlike the dev you picked) and is, of course, let’s not deny it, way cheaper.

[Retric]

I’ve worked with plenty of jr developers at east coast government contractors, arguably the bottom of the barrel. I would still rather put their code into production, even without unit tests, than I would ChatGPT.

ChatGPT is only cheap if you don’t need its code to do anything of any particular value. It’s a seemingly ideal solution to collage homework for example. But professionally people write code to actually achieve something, this is why programmers actually get paid well in the first place. The point isn’t LOC the point is solving some problem.

[scarface74]

And junior devs are horrible at knowing what problem to solve and how to solve it without handholding. I am working on a relatively complex DevOps/“cloud application modernization” project. Where the heavy lifting is designing the process and gathering requirements. But there are a lot of 20-40 line Lambdas and Python/boto3 (AWS SDK), yaml/json wrangling, dynamic Cloudformation creating scripts.

I was able to give ChatGPT the requirements for all of them. The types of bugs I found during the first pass:

- the AWS SDK and the underlying API only returns 50 results in one call most of the time. From the SDK you have to use the built in “paginators”. ChatGPT didn’t use them the first time. But once I said “this will only return the first 50 results”. It immediately corrected the script and used the paginator. I have also had to look out for similar bugs from junior devs.

- The usual yaml library for Python doesn’t play nicely with CloudFormation templates because of the function syntax that starts with an “!”. I didn’t know this beforehand. But once I told ChatGPT the error, it replaced the yaml handling with cfn-flip.

- I couldn’t figure out for the life of me how to combine the !If function in CloudFormation with a Condition, and a Yaml block that contain another !Select function with two arguments. I put the template block without the conditional and told ChatGPT “make the VPC configuration optional based on a parameter”. It created the Parameter section, the condition and the appropriate Yaml.

I’ve given similar problems to interns/junior devs before and ChatGPT was much better at it.

[Retric]

Reading that I can only assume you’ve made really poor use of Jr developers.

Which ok I get why you think ChatGPT is more useful.

[scarface74]

You really think that Jr devs could crank out the same code faster than ChatGPT? I couldn’t crank out the same code and you couldn’t either. The most you can hope from JR devs (even the ones I have met at BigTech) is that they don’t eat the chalk during the first 3-6 months.

[vbezhenar]

As for now, issue with ChatGPT is that it doesn't really crank anything. It instantly produces answer for given input. While programmer can crank things. For example I asked ChatGPT to write a function which returns UUID generated with some rules. It spewed the solution. It looked like a correct one but when I run it, it returned wrong answer. I worked with ChatGPT for some time and it corrected its code. But I would expect from junior developer to actually run his code and check output.

Now if ChatGPT would be able to actually work on the problem rather than returning generated text, that would be a completely different beast. And I think that this workflow will come in the near future because it's pretty obvious idea. Get task specification, generate tests, generate code, fix code until tests work, refactor code until it meets some standards, etc.

[mullingitover]

> I think that this workflow will come in the near future because it's pretty obvious idea. Get task specification, generate tests, generate code, fix code until tests work, refactor code until it meets some standards, etc.

ChatGPT probably works great if you use it to speedrun normal best practices in software engineering. Make it start by writing tests given a spec, then make it write code that will pass the specific tests it just wrote. I’m guessing it’ll avoid a lot of mistakes, much like any engineer, if you force it to do TDD.

[anonzzzies]

You can loop chatgpt around automatically, asking it to write tests and reason about the code for a few iterations; in my experience it auto corrects the code like a human would after some ‘thinking’ time. Of course the code has to run automatically and errors fed back, like with a human. It works fine though, without human input after some prompting work.

[scarface74]

> But I would expect from junior developer to actually run his code and check output.

You give junior devs way too much credit. They rarely test corner cases.

[ipaddr]

Always hire a senior developer without experience for junior role. By that I mean hire a developer who knows how to program but lacks specific experience or has no formal experience at all.

[alxlu]

Doesn’t this only work for relatively contrived situations? I can tell a jr dev to go and add some minor feature in a codebase, put it behind a flag, and add tracking/analytics to it. I can point to the part of the application I want the feature to be added on the screen and the jr devs are often able to find it on their own. I haven’t seen chatGPT do anything like that and I don’t think there is a way to provide it with the necessary context even if it has the capability.

[scarface74]

For me it works for small stand alone utility scripts. But the most impressive thing I was able to get it to do was.

“Given an XML file with the format {[1]} and a DynamoDB table with two fields “Key”, “Value”, write a Python script that replaces the Value in the xml file when the corresponding key is found. Use argparse to let me specify both the input xml file and the output XML”

It spit out perfect Python code. I hadn’t used XML in well over a decade and I definitely didn’t know how to read xml in Python. I didn’t want to bother about learning.

I actually pasted an XML sample like the link below.

[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/developer/vis...

[danaris]

Wait, you think "junior developers are actually moderately competent" only makes sense within the HN echo chamber?

I think you have that exactly backwards.

Most junior developers most places may not have the experience of a senior developer, and thus be able to do the translation from business logic to code quite as fast and accurately the first time, but this kind of derogatory attitude toward them is incredibly condescending and insulting.

ChatGPT doesn't know what it's doing. It doesn't know anything, and unlike the most junior developer barely trained, it can't even check its output to see if it matches the desired output.

And for goodness' sake, get rid of the absurd idea that all the competent developers are in Silicon Valley. That's even more insulting to the vast majority of developers in the entire world.