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by freitzkriesler 1230 days ago
Right, and what happens when we include the pollution used to make those lithium ion batteries?

Oh, we're just going to ignore this inconvenient truth because the pollution and toxic lakes are somewhere in china and Mongolia. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-...

6 comments

Environmentalist everywhere have been fighting mining industry for ever, often confused and co-opted by NIMBYs. Yes it is an inconvenient truth that all consumption hurts us. A car is still a car even if it is electric, we are of course better of with no cars at all. Very few people are actually arguing that.
The most honest comment here.

But yes, EV lovers will not admit their biases. The only way to save the environment is by REDUCING.

Shall we also ignore the similar negative externalities of ICE cars such as palladium/rhodium mining for catalytic converters?
Sure since we're both clearly lying by omission.
I want to point out you started this quagmire by connecting into a broader narrative. The linked article simply says "we think localized emissions go down when EV adoption rates go up in a particular area" which says nothing about this larger discussion about the net social effects of EVs. Personally I believe we can discuss this until the end of time without a conclusive answer until someone has completely documented and analyzed all the relevant supply chains end to end for every new ICE car and every new EV car.
I really don't have any qualms about posting unpopular facts and truths.

Localized or not, we live in a globalized world and it's a fact that lithium ion battery production is dangerous and dirty work on par with the petroleum that it is trying to eliminate. EV fanatics don't like hearing this, but it is true.

Agree to disagree to agree. One thing that's particularly dangerous and dirty right now is cobalt. (Used primarily in rechargeable batteries, and airbags, jet engines, etc) Unlike some other exotic materials, it's currently a supply chain that cannot prove which materials were obtained using modern techniques and heavy equipment, and which ones were obtained by hand through brutalized labor practices.

I caught an interview on NPR recently[1] with the author of "Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives"

[1]: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893...

The claim that lithium ion battery production is as bad as petroleum production is ridiculous.

The scale of mining required to produce a lithium-ion battery and the solar panels to charge it is far lower than required to produce and refine the petroleum used over the lifetime of a vehicle.

The other little secret about mining is that nasty as it is, the impact of non-petroleum mining on the environment is miniscule compared to farming, which is far more damaging but has much better PR.

It’s on a completely different order of magnitude. And actually, yes, pollution far away from major population centers is much better than pollution within cities- regardless of what country it’s in.
Right, so long as we out source the pollution somewhere else where in the world it's OK.
The US has just committed to billions of dollars per year in incentives to bring that pollution to the US. Between the IRA's 10-year expansion of incentives for buying cars with US-manufactured batteries and US-mined minerals, Section 45X, the Advanced Manufacturing Production Credit, is the reason billions of dollars of battery manufacturing and associated supply chain investments on US soil were announced in 2022.
Well, as long as it's not our kids digging in mines for lithium, it's OK...
The world’s biggest lithium mines are in Australia, where miners earn extremely good wages and safety standards are at least as good as the US.
1. The pollution caused by oil drilling/production is even worse - and we (used to) even fight wars for oil.

2. You forgot to mention that more than 50% of lithium comes from Australia: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produ...

1. And what happens when EVs become 30,40,50, or even 90% of the automobile fleets around the world?

You're going to need to ramp up the otherwise dirty and disgusting production of LiOn to meet demand. LiOn production is as dirty if not worse than petroleum distillation and drilling.

2. See point 1

People have run those numbers. Here is a calculator for CO2:

https://evtool.ucsusa.org/

Also, China will eventually improve their environmental regulations, just like every developing economy before them.

Right, and what happens when we include the pollution used to make the entirety of the petroleum processing industry?

Oh, we're just going to ignore this inconvenient truth.

Right and what happens when include the pollution for disposing of those lithium ion batteries when they eventually die?

Oh, we're just going to ignore this inconvenient truth.

But please, let's keep lying by omission.

EV batteries aren't disposed of, they're reused as stationary storage, then recycled, with over 97% of the raw materials recoverable to put into new batteries as of 2021. Redwood Materials recycles over 60 tons of them per day, and has another facility opening in 2023 that can handle an additional 125,000 tons per year. The materials are too valuable to throw out, so a market for reusing and recycling them has existed as long as li-ion electric cars have existed.
Right and what happens when we include the gas flaring that happens in the production of gas?

Oh, we're just going to ignore this inconvenient truth.