[throwrqX]

Every time this comes up people talk about protecting privacy and anonymity and what not and while luckily for us most of the time the laws die out they still do pass on occasion. The fundamental issue to me is that society still wants to protect against pedophiles or drug dealers or whatever other group more than protect privacy. As an example, how many people here could go on television onto some talk program or news show with their real name and face and tell a child abuse victim that while their concerns may be valid they are wrong and they should shut up? I doubt very many. I ran into a similar scenario once defending privacy when a lady who said she was abused as a child came into the conversation and told her story to the crowd. As you can imagine the crowd was very supportive of her and my concerns were more or less dismissed afterwards. There is nothing technical I could say that could persuade them as much as the poor lady's life story could.

[nhchris]

Say "Most sexual abuse is domestic. Shall we mandate cameras in every room of every house? Or remote engine-lock to stop terrorist car attacks? There are cameras everywhere, forensics is more advanced than ever, 'going dark' is the opposite of reality. But there is always some small remaining scrap of freedom left to sacrifice for supposed 'safety', until we are reduced to cattle. Doing so is spitting on the graves of everyone who ever died for freedom, of everyone who chose to fight instead of 'peacefully' submit to foreign conquest or domestic dictatorship.

But suppose you do prefer 'safety' to all else, to privacy and liberty. Suppose you want to sacrifice everything for it. Will you even get it? We can today build prisons and surveillance far more effective than at any point in history, and once we've turned society into a safe cage, how sure are you the wrong people won't get the keys? Historically, how many governments would you have trusted with such total surveillance of their citizens? Tsarist Russia? Soviet Russia? Present day Russia? Communist China? Present day China? Nazi Germany? The Stasi? The Khmer Rouge? The Ottoman Empire? Iran? The British Raj? But you're sure nothing like that will happen here? This time, benevolent government will last, and we can safely surrender all means of opposition?"

[alar44]

It's a great argument but way over the head of the average citizen. Most people are unable to think about things this way. The government and police are the good guys etc.

[r3trohack3r]

> The fundamental issue to me is that society still wants to protect against pedophiles or drug dealers or whatever other group more than protect privacy.

Speaking from a U.S. perspective here.

A pedophile with a cameraphone is terrible. But law enforcement without the 4th amendment is worse.

A racist with a social media account is terrible. But a president without the 1st amendment is worse.

There are people who do terrible things in this world. Unfortunately people who do terrible things can run for government and be appointed to positions of power.

There are darker things down the path of eroding our protections from our government than whatever evil they’re asking us to yield for.

[skrebbel]

I had to look this up, so here's my attempt at translation for non-Americans:

> A pedophile with a cameraphone is terrible. But law enforcement that can search and seize property at will is worse.

> A racist with a social media account is terrible. But a president that can deny people their freedom of expression & assembly is worse.

I agree.

(ps. offtopic meta remark, the American enthusiasm for remembering laws by number never ceases to amaze me)

[Rekksu]

that's only specifically the first 10 amendments, which are generally referred to as the bill of rights as they were added to the constitution when it was ratified and cover most basic freedoms so they're taught in school

other rights-granting amendments are the post civil war ones which are slightly less well known but also covered in school

[Gigachad]

Nah I often see people talking about stuff like prop <some number> expecting everyone to know what that refers to.

[midoridensha]

Most Americans won't know those, because those are state-specific (usually for California; most states don't even have Propositions that citizens can vote on).

Every American knows what the 1st Amendment is, by contrast.

[llanowarelves]

They are more than just a law, they are part of the constitution (much harder to change).

And the reason why the first 10 (the Bill of Rights) and some others are learned by all schoolchildren is because the rights delineated within directly address many dire problems Americans had suffered as British colonies (and why there was a war, so is said), and so the reasons why America was formed by its founders in the first place. Part of the mythology and moral license.

[supercheetah]

> There are darker things down the path of eroding our protections from our government than whatever evil they’re asking us to yield for.

I agree with you, but this illustrates part of the problem of our messaging. These policies are still just tools which don't have an inherent moral value. The evil comes from their abuse on a mass scale, and the huge temptation to abuse them, with the emphasis on how easily the powerful can be corrupted.

This is prone to being called out for being a slippery slope fallacy, but we need to just back it up with historical precedent, like how similar policies were abused in the US as revealed by Snowden.

[jeremyjh]

What does the first amendment have to do with social media companies?

[elpool2]

There are people who would like the government to outlaw racism/hate speech on social media. The first amendment prevents that. I think r3trohack3r's point is that eroding those 1st amendment rights to outlaw hate speech would be worse than the actual hate speech.

[posterboy]

I believe the general concensus is that it doesn't because private media companies aren't public spaces, so the company rules. How far the company enjoys freespeech, whether it extenda to their users and who gets to define hate speech I don't know, but lible is criminalized already and further analogies aren't impossible.

I mean, I could call a hackernews a punk ass neoliberal cunt and wait what happens next.

[Clubber]

This is true, but the first amendment should also prevent the government from pressuring said companies to censor speech as well. This would be the government using it's power and coercion to violate people's 1st amendment rights via a third party. Think "hiring someone to murder someone is still murder for the person hiring," or a police soliciting a trespass.

The recent "Twitter files" showed that the government is/was working directly with Twitter and probably all the media companies to censor speech. The government, on multiple occasions, provided specific tweets and people to censor and Twitter complied. I believe they had weekly meetings to do just that.

[r3trohack3r]

This stops being true when U.S. government officials (including publicly elected officials and folks in 3 letter agencies) get involved with those moderation policies.

I think it’s still an open question whether it’s acceptable for government officials to be involved in any way with the moderation policies of a company outside of the 1st amendment including:

* asking for changes to moderation policies

* asking for enforcement of existing policies

* passing lists of users to be watched for policy violations

* etc.

Which has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen until the courts figure out whether or not the U.S. government is allowed to launder away 1st amendment protections through collaboration with private companies.

[_vertigo]

> how many people here could go on television onto some talk program or news show with their real name and face and tell a child abuse victim that while their concerns may be valid they are wrong and they should shut up?

Well, putting aside the "shut up" part, I'd be happy to state publicly that under no (reasonable, peacetime) circumstances should the government be allowed to read my texts, emails, and documents.

Obviously there's a bunch of qualifiers to assign to that (if I'm under suspicion of something, OK, sure, maybe the government can get a warrant) that I'm not qualified to speak intelligently about, but that's the gist. Saying that the government should not be able to read your email or list to your phone calls is not an unpopular opinion, at least in the States, and it's also not one that requires you to be of an overly technical persuasion to have.

People support victims of child abuse and they also distrust the government and don't want it to have awesome powers of espionage it can wield against the entire populace at scale all of the time. Those positions might conflict with each other if you frame the conversation that way, but if you do frame it that way, I don't think it's a given that the child abuse argument is always going to win the debate.

[pessimizer]

Don't worry about that audience. Us profesional-managerial upper-middle class types are surrounded by people whose beliefs are subordinate to their personal ambition; it's a qualification for entering the class, because it takes an enormous amount of hard work, social connections, and study to reach and maintain that position. So you end up surrounded by people who live a politics of personal interests i.e. real concern about issues that affect them and the people they love (deemed universal), and ephemeral concern that sometimes borders on actual ignorance of things that don't affect them and theirs. This ephemeral concern and ignorance is entirely based in fashion.

Upper-middle class PMCs generally aren't worried about being monitored or censored by authorities (except within the games of party power politics and wedge issues.) If anything, when they hear about it, they look to see if there are job openings. They are concerned about child abuse, because even wealthy children get abused. Universal.

They constitute (if I'm being generous) 20% of the population and are useless to try to convince. It's their duty to explain to you that the society that has rewarded them generously for their hard work actually has everyone's best interests at heart, no matter how ludicrous it seems.

[8note]

I'd just point out that the TSA is known for exploitatively using it's naked scans of people.

Ensuring that the government has access to everyone's nudes includes children's nudes.

Pedophile police officers is worse than pedophile non-police, since the pedophile police would have the law on their side

[Hnrobert42]

Ah. I’m going to need a source to back this one up.

I steadfastly refused to use the mm wave scanners for years until DHS went through the proper comment period. I have no love for those things.

Initially, the device produced revealing images. Now the images are more or less anonymous white figures with private areas even more obscured.

If you have data to the contrary, Im interested.

[mab122]

Side argument - why do you need protection from drug dealers? Just don't buy drugs from them if you don't want any.

Main argument: you bring up very important aspect - emotional one. We are very emotional and in the heat of the moment you probably won't be able to make good technical and reasonable case to persuade people, but that doesn't mean they are right.

Also I am not against _solutions_ to the problem. I am against solutions that when implemented have really low cost of switching them into tools of abuse.

Example: There is law that allows banning of websites (just DNS resolution) that promote gambling, illegal porn etc. It was recently used to "take down" a website that leaked emails of politicians of current government (it could be bad if we speak of some national security / military stuff, in that case they share info about corruption and nepotism)

[ghusto]

Conflating privacy stripping laws with paedophilia protection is something I'd happily deconstruct, whether in front of a camera or otherwise. It's not difficult to show with logic how one doesn't help the other, and I could even go as far as showing how the laws make things worse.

Don't bring feelings to a logic fight.

[Seattle3503]

Convincing people not to support privacy eroding laws isn't a logic fight as you are imagining it. Advocacy is much more complicated than that.

[ghusto]

> Convincing people not to support privacy eroding laws isn't a logic fight as you are imagining it

Who said anything about convincing people? The logic will stand on it's own merit, regardless of who "wins" the argument. Anybody caring to examine the arguments — or continue arguing logically — can make up their own minds.

I'll happily argue logic, but other people's opinions aren't my problem.

[pfortuny]

That is why passion is not a good way to write laws.

Something being useful (lack of privacy) does not make it either good or necessary.

[vorpalhex]

"Would the law you propose have stopped you being abused?"

No. Police are not psychics. They do not stop theoretical crime. They can only respond after crime has happened.

[mahathu]

> As an example, how many people here could go on television onto some talk program or news show with their real name and face and tell a child abuse victim that while their concerns may be valid they are wrong and they should shut up? I doubt very many.

I think I'm misunderstanding you here, are you implying presently real politicians would have to do that to advocate for privacy laws?

[benevol]

By that logic, we'd need to make knives illegal, because people get stabbed to death every day somewhere.

[canadaduane]

It isn't logic, and I think that's the point--it's an appeal to emotion, and if you pit logic vs emotion, emotion will almost always win in the broader culture. (A few oddball cultures like ycombinator and lesswrong etc. aside, perhaps).

[posterboy]

Which logic?

It's always a matter of availability, balance, justification, right. The justification is there, so your argument is a strawman.

It would be more relevant in a direct comparison to gun control, which. Blades are fairly easy to furnish on the spot, easier than guns, so this comparison fails, too.

Balance requires a need for knives, which is difficult to put aside and certainly not the point of this argument. The ball park figure alone is not making a rational argument.

The internet is not the breaking point either way, though it could be used to implement access control.

So, I am effectively unsure if your whatabout'ish strawman is in favour of intrusive regulation.

[canadaduane]

This is an awesome point, and one I think geeks need to hear often: We act based on our emotions even if they are well-hidden beneath logical explanations.

Perhaps the "answer" to the lady who was abused as a child is to tell another emotional story--for example, Ann Frank:

> Have you heard the story of Anne Frank? She was a Jewish girl who lived in Amsterdam during the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands in World War II. She and her sister lived in hiding for two years until they were eventually discovered and arrested by the Gestapo. They later died of typhus in a concentration camp.

> How did surveillance play a role? No one knows who betrayed her. She lived through constant fear of being caught. Knowing they were being watched added to the already difficult conditions of living in hiding--the stress of the situation affected their relationships and mental health.

> If you or those you care about ever find yourself on the "less desirable" list in society, it's vital that you have some control over things you say to others in confidence. The Nazi's oppression of the Jewish people limited their freedom and contributed to Anne's tragic end.

[BeFlatXIII]

That’s why you let people vote how they want and then give them the Truman Show.