[methodical]

And by using Bitcoin to automate all these transactions you get a bunch of very cool features such as constantly being at risk of losing your life savings due to phishing, scamming, hacking, etc., etc., etc. unless you store a hard wallet in your intestines and memorize the recovery words (better hope you don't forget any or your life savings is gone!). The cool thing about all of this is that it's a feature of Bitcoin to be able to irreversibly lose your life savings, without any ability to recoup your losses.

All of this to say that Bitcoin is obviously the way forward for global transactions, despite the fact it processes transactions as slow as molasses and the only way to make it faster (Lightning Network) is to sacrifice the checks and balances that maxis praise as the hallmark of Bitcoin lol

[abigail95]

It's a different kind of cash (like banknotes). It has different security tradeoffs because the owner is the custodian and you aren't paying a chain of intermediaries.

It's not a feature of cash that it can be stolen, every object can be stolen. The distinctive attribute is transactions are public and immutable.

A car can be driven by its owner anywhere they like. If someone described a car to you as a suicide box you can crash and die in - you might say yes, the fact that cars can be driven freely by their owners means you might drive into someone else. But that's a consequence of the feature, not the feature itself.

[methodical]

The difference of course between all of the rubbish that crypto/Bitcoin is (since they are, at the end of the day, in the same boat), is that by entrusting central parties to handle financial transactions in our traditional financial systems we have methods by which we can reverse transactions, whereas in any blockchain system there is no real authority, by design, so any stolen assets are lost forever. There aren't security "tradeoffs", because there is not a way in which any blockchain based currency is any more secure than current finances, outside of the fact that no bank or government entity could take your digital beanie babies because they don't have the token, which isn't an issue in traditional banks either unless you're a criminal for the most part. And in order to get this "advantage" of blockchain, you have to completely remove its ability to be used as a currency since for any amount of crypto or Bitcoin to be useful in the real world it almost always has to be converted back into fiat, once again centralizing it. The whole concept is extremely flawed, hasn't really gained any ground outside of FOMO'ers, and will likely die out again soon, thankfully.

[asterix_pano]

- you can use an escrow account to reverse the transaction if needed - having full ownership of your money and it being censorship resistant (depending on the crypto) is certainly a plus if you don't fully trust your government. - the conversion to fiat is depending on adoption: the more adoption there is, the less necessary that would be. - you can decide to wire your money 24/7, internationally, instantly and with no fees (with the right crypto)

Overall you get more control of your money. If you think of money as just another kind of information, it's normal to expect it to evolve in the digital age we are living in.

[throwaway2037]

This reply was excellent. This part really made me laugh:

    unless you store a hard wallet in your intestines and memorize the recovery words (better hope you don't forget any or your life savings is gone!)

To continue the "lulz", South American drug traffickers will soon be cutting those people open to extract their hard wallet!

Enough with the jokes! Real question: Sometimes you read about FBI chasing down ransomware groups and recovering Bitcoins. How do they do it? If they can identify the wallet, how do they lay claim? Do they find where the wallet is hosted and force exchange to transfer wallet to FBI?

Please don't read this post as an attempt to defend Bitcoin, nor say that FBI is a good way for me to reverse a fraudulent Bitcoin transaction!

[rglover]

> And by using Bitcoin to automate all these transactions you get a bunch of very cool features such as constantly being at risk of losing your life savings due to phishing, scamming, hacking, etc., etc.

All lies.

> unless you store a hard wallet in your intestines and memorize the recovery words (better hope you don't forget any or your life savings is gone!)

Lies. Just write them down and store them securely. You can memorize them if you like. It's also wise to store multiple physical copies in various locations to avoid this exact scenario.

> The cool thing about all of this is that it's a feature of Bitcoin to be able to irreversibly lose your life savings, without any ability to recoup your losses.

Yes, you can't be utterly careless (and I'm not sure what the argument is for wanting to be).

> the only way to make it faster (Lightning Network) is to sacrifice the checks and balances that maxis praise as the hallmark of Bitcoin

Yes, which makes sense for small transactions between trusted parties. Large transactions can and should be done on-chain (also with trusted parties).

--

I'll continue to listen to the signal [1], not the noise. What makes me happiest is that the people who deserve to win the most will win over the people who deserve it the least. It will be the greatest wealth transfer humanity has ever seen and it won't require any violence or coercion.

[1] https://twitter.com/LightningTipB0t/status/16150147987979919...

[methodical]

> All lies.

Doesn't bother to point out what part of it was a lie (because it isn't a lie)

> Lies. Just write them down and store them securely.

Welcome to the future of finance, make sure you don't lose your seed phrases written down on paper (it's the future, trust me bro)

> Yes, you can't be utterly careless

Contradicts saying that I was lying that you can lose your life savings due to phishing, scamming, or hacking, and that if you lose your seed phrases and can't access the wallet then your digital doubloons are gone forever

etc.

[rglover]

> Doesn't bother to point out what part of it was a lie (because it isn't a lie)

This "constantly being at risk of losing your life savings due to phishing, scamming, hacking, etc." is a lie. There is no inherent property of Bitcoin that makes you vulnerable to these. Any vulnerability in those regards is an individual issue, just like with the current system. You could mitigate those away with paid services under a Bitcoin standard (which is great because you could actually pick the vendor you thought could do the job best).

> Welcome to the future of finance, make sure you don't lose your seed phrases written down on paper (it's the future, trust me bro)

Perhaps you prefer steel? https://www.amazon.com/Safe-Seed-Stainless-Recovery-Passphra...

> Contradicts saying that I was lying that you can lose your life savings due to phishing, scamming, or hacking, and that if you lose your seed phrases and can't access the wallet then your digital doubloons are gone forever

Fair enough. This is where an exchange comes in. You still have the option to trust a third-party to hold your Bitcoin if you wish. But of course, that comes with its own risks, just like trusting a bank (which can only ever guarantee up to $250K worth of your money under FDIC).

[ZephyrBlu]

I'm pretty favourable towards crypto, but it is absolutely an inherent property of blockchains.

The whole point is that it's immutable and transactions are not reversible. That means users are susceptible to losing their money with no recourse.

Seed phrases are also a pain in the ass. No one wants to deal with that, and average consumers would absolutely lose/forget/misplace them and lose access to their wallets.

The risk of ruin in crypto is ridiculously high compared to traditional finance.

[TylerE]

This sort of vague handwaving of valid concerns is the definition of noise.

[methodical]

Almost like handwaving is the only way to disregard any of the real concerns people bring up about Bitcoin or crypto because there's not really any good way to dispel them with much logical proof.

[rglover]

I responded directly to what was said. There's no handwaving, you just don't like my response. Read my other responses in this thread, too.

[TylerE]

"All lies" is not a response.

[rglover]

That was only part of the response.

[boeingUH60]

> It will be the greatest wealth transfer humanity has ever seen and it won't require any violence or coercion.

Of course, wealth transfer from the poor rubes to the rich fools.