[cturner]

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth.

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late high-school math to understand Big-O.

I suspect people who are good at or passionate about math are far more likely to stroke their ego with premature optimisation.

Also, there's a vast difference between aptitude for maths, and performing well in maths tests. Attention to detail, regard for the education system, interest in the topic all play a part.

    > There is evidence women avoid computing because
    > they are intolerant of geeks

I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. Young men are a strange bunch, but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around. It can be more effort to deal with someone bizarre (has feelings but is draining) than someone who is just a bastard (quickly tell them to get stuffed). If you sense a concentration of draining people - avoid!

[yummyfajitas]

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming...

I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college).

Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data that I'm not even going to attempt to write about stuff I have no readily available data on.

I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. [...] young nerds [...] are therefore undesirable to be around.

Um, that's not the reverse direction. That's the same direction as what I said: women avoid computing because they are intolerant of geeks.

Note that young nerds also often act "bizarrely" towards men and each other. I certainly did before I learned to pass. But the claim of the author of the studies I cited is that women are less tolerant of "bizarre" behavior.

[cturner]

    > I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data

It's a bit like the flying spaghetti monster book where they correlate the decline of piracy with global warming. You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming.

I accept your correction in that we're making the same point about young men. What I should have said is that the way you phrase it makes it seem like it's women that initiate the pattern. I don't think that's so. Although perhaps you could go back further and ask, what made the men neurotic in the first place, was it cruel rejection or bullying by prom queens - no idea. I just found the phrasing backwards.

[yummyfajitas]

You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming.

Fair enough. I thought the link was obvious enough, but you are keeping me honest. I have no data proving this link myself.

However, I just messaged a friend of mine who occasionally dabbles in math-ed stuff. He recommends these (paywalled) papers as starting points:

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&col...

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480

And an older paper "Identification of Computer Programming Aptitude", by Alspaugh (one of the early works).

I'll asked him to give me copies next time I see him in person (I'm no longer an academic, so I can't access university libraries).

[cema]

  I would strongly suspect that 
  just as math and CS ability are correlated, 
  so would math and chemistry. 

I am not sure about that. In my experience, mathematics and chemistry were not noticeably correlated (either way). On the other hand, such ostensibly different subjects as mathematics and music were positively correlated. Experience is anecdotal but includes math classes in high school, applied math in college, and computer science in grad school.

[drumdance]

Music and computer programming are correlated as well. Once upon a time orchestras were overwhelmingly male, but now there are a lot more women in orchestras, not to mention world-class soloists. This is partly due to the blind audition process that became common ~40 years ago.

[roguecoder]

I'd assume music and CS would be more closely correlated, and there is lots of research into music too. Most relevantly, the transition to blind auditions wiping out gender disparities in orchestra makeups.

[wlievens]

> so would math and chemistry

Anecdotal evidence here: I'm pretty good at math, but failed several chemistry exams in high scool. I just didn't "get" it. Maybe I would be able now, because I'm better at thinking abstractly and systematically than when I was 16, but that would be because I'm a programmer today. For me the correlation definitely doesn't hold. Same goes (to a lesser extent) for biology for me.

[youngnerd112]

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them!

Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

[bethling]

I've been called a bitch to my face during architectural debates. I've had responses to my technical comments come back as "whatever, sudo make me a sandwich". Been asked while doing interviews, "Oh wait you're not HR?" I've gone to many presentations contain sexist images, etc. Throughout my career I've been constantly had to deal with implications that I don't belong - and that my opinions can be dismissed..

Yet, somehow I manage to keep the perspective that technology isn't populated by sexist assholes - sure the ones that are there stand out and make up a lot of the things that come to mind when I'm stressed. But really it's a small percentage [even though that small percentage can really get to you].

Try to keep the same perspective about women, the vast majority of us aren't "bitches".

[youngnerd112]

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation.

I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

[adrianpike]

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter.

As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life, social cues sometimes don't come as naturally to us as they do to many others - it takes time and effort to not be socially awkward, but it's 100% worth it.

The next time something like that happens, try reviewing exactly what happened, how things might have been misinterpreted, and how you can learn & grow from it.

Also keep in mind that there are lots of people who _are_ jerks, but gender has nothing to do with it.

Most importantly, don't let it bias you, and keep your chin up!

[youngnerd1121]

Thanks for the kind words man!...My situation is actually not as hopeless as I am leading people to believe here.

The point I was trying to make was that a bunch of negative experiences with women when you are young leaves very deep scars and these scars manifest themselves as unconscious biases so much that whenever you see a beautiful woman (who will most probably reject you if you tried!) you are automatically biased against her.My brain does this to me so often even though I think I am logical than most other people.

Now I will make another point that is also controversial.(someone needs to say these things!)

See when you grow your skills interacting with women a point comes when the things you cant change matter much more than the things you can, so much that the situation seems pretty helpless.

So at that point even if I bought really expensive clothes and bought myself a mercedes or say became a really smooth talker, how women respond to me would only marginally improve as compared to the non-possible changes such as changing my race to become white...changing my height to become six feet tall etc.

So no matter what I do a six feet tall white guy or a good looking muscular black guy will always have significantly higher odds of attracting a given woman over me.

The more you approach the limit the more you begin to see this brutal truth of the dating world.The things that matter most are things you are born with and this sometimes causes you develop significantly negative feelings towards women as a whole.

[mattgreenrocks]

> The things that matter most are things you are born with and this sometimes causes you develop significantly negative feelings towards women as a whole.

Wrong. You're suffering from confirmation bias.

Guys obsess about money and looks to prove their worth to females, but most of that shit doesn't matter, actually. (It's held against you if you're severely deficient, of course.)

What does? A strong sense of self-identity, confidence, the ability to be both a risk-taker and a stable provider, and, more generally, being an interesting person. These are much harder to work on, so you don't hear as much talk about them. You need to be able to enjoy your life without a girlfriend. You need to have something you love to talk about, and, preferably something you can be good at.

Suck up your pride, ask for help, and start working toward taking responsibility for more of your life.

[miritum]

I find it sad that the dating world has come up in this discussion. While I understand where the points came from, I don't believe that anyone's perception of anyone else as a potential sexual/romantic partner has a place in a discussion about the working world. Whether or not women are attracted to a particular person, to a particular programmer, or to the stereotype of a "programmer", has no bearing on their ability to program.

[roguecoder]

Nope, but I bet she's be in a situation where men expected her to drop everything to make herself sexually available for a stranger.

Everyone wants to be seen as desirable, but it is not an entire gender's fault that the specific women you've approached don't respond to your advances. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the best way I've found to get dates is to treat women like interesting people instead of potential dates, while putting effort into making myself conventionally attractive (working out, getting regular hair cuts, careful grooming, conversational techniques). It's a lot of work, but it's been more effective than deciding the problem is women. Women talk to each other: the friend you make today has a bunch of friends she can set you up with tomorrow. I mean, if the problem is "all women" you might as well give up.

Plus, in the meantime I've met a bunch of interesting people and had interesting conversations I'd otherwise have missed out on because I was only considering women as potential romantic partners. It is possible to have fulfilling intellectual, emotional and social relationships that have nothing to do with sex. If you do care exclusively about sex, I recommend escorts or online hookups.

[youngnerd112]

Although I fully agree with what the advice you are giving me.....I think you are wrongly viewing my motivations being primarily sexual...and the point is that most women do it too!

[roguecoder]

So, about 20% of college-aged women and 20% of college-aged men enjoy casual sex based on superficial characteristics. They tend to populate bars. Because you mentioned offering to buy women a drink I had, perhaps unfairly, assumed that was your target market.

If you are interested in relationships, those 20% are unlikely to provide them. I think online dating is a much better choice: I know several friends, including married friends, who met on OkCupid.

The problem I have observed is that nerds assume the problem is women. It's like if you're linking in a common library and it's failing to load: what's more likely, that there's a bug in the library that thousands of other people use or that you accidentally linked against the debug version? Someday I'll get around to writing my "How to Hack Dating: an iterative approach to acquiring relationships" book. Lean Startup principles apply surprisingly well.

[Tichy]

While saying such things is really ugly (I don't want to defend such women), maybe it could help you a little to think about the asymmetry in dating. Attractive women get approached all the time, a feeling most men probably can't begin to appreciate. If you are a programmer, compare it to the emails from recruiters you get all the time... There are certainly lots of such emails that I have taken to delete without reply now.

[youngnerd112]

yes...but when you get a lot of rejections from recruiters dont you console yourself by saying/fantasizing that one day when you are truly successful you will ignore all recruiters and maybe get one or two out of a job...if you see all the threads on HN about recruiters people are easily biased against recruiters.

We are all human beings with weakly rational brains.Only thing wrong here is that it is not socially acceptable to be biased against women!

[wlievens]

He's not talking about rejections from recruiters... he's talking about getting too many crappy recruitment mails.

I get about 5 mails per week pimping some junior job to me that would probably pay 40% less than my current job. I don't reply to these emails because these people haven't done their homework.

The poster above you is saying that maybe that's how attractive women fail...

[jessedhillon]

Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented:

For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them --

but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around

-- But for you to fail to achieve representation in the population which can acquire a mate or find a willing sex partner is ALSO a flaw with women!

Brilliant! Heads: you win; tails: women lose.

[youngnerd112]

It was in response to the parents comment

"but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around."

and a personal explanation of why I as a young nerd is slowly developing this kind of a bias.

[cturner]

If you're having trouble of the sort of ratios you're talking about, you're doing something that alienates people. That doesn't have to be the end of things, because if you work at it eventually it'll change.

You can't change other people. Focus on the things you can affect, like finding ways to make yourself a more relaxed and relaxing person to talk to.

Some people are trying to give you feedback in other parts of this thread. Much of it is not constructive, but some is. But you seem to be focussed on reiterating your points rather than taking it on.

Work out how you can be more open to feedback. Find someone who will give you honest feedback. Distinguish between people who give good, direct feedback and people who get off by demeaning you.

I assume you created this account as a throwaway because you had an idea what you were saying would be controversial but this stuff is troubling you you and you wanted to talk about it. Good move. Now take the next step.

[theresaanna]

Reworded:

I either gravitate toward women who tend to respond to my advances negatively or have some behavior that puts women off. Therefore, I'm sexist and consider most if not all women inferior to men in ways including ability in math, engineering. Because I can't get them to sleep with me.

...What??

[youngnerd112]

Umm no...but let me try to reword what I said in that language:

Although I absolutely agree that it is totally irrational to think of women as inferior in anything , my primate human brain cannot be convinced by reason alone to discard all its biases.Therefore I stand as an example of a young male nerd who as a result of his interactions with the opposite sex is developing negative biases towards them.

[wlievens]

> Umm no

Read that post again very carefully. Either you look for the wrong women, or you do something women dislike. Both are relatively easy to fix.

[mattgreenrocks]

Brutally honest? You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever. What's more, it will haunt you if you don't deal with it now.

Go talk it out, either with a friend or a therapist. The longer you wait, the harder it will be.

[youngnerd112]

>You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

I think like all other people you are missing my point.Please read my other responses on this thread.

But Yes I am certainly a failure so far by all conventional standards......but that does'nt mean I have the magical ability to get rid of all my biases....dealing with them is going to take time and in case of this particular bias ,perhaps a lot of positive experiences of interacting with women.

[mattgreenrocks]

I didn't call you a failure per se; it was more an exhortation to quit the pity party, take responsibility for your misguided thinking, and do something about it. That is the point of my thread.

The specious arguments you put forth in the thread are not worth addressing.

[anigbrowl]

Then again, maybe it's you.

[youngnerd112]

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

[tptacek]

You realize that doesn't make it acceptable to harbor prejudices, right? The only reason you're not directly penalized for having them is that they're hard to screen for in job interviews... or were, before you gave the Google crawler trace evidence about one of yours.

[youngnerd112]

The unfounded assumptions that you have made are

a) Most people dont have any prejudices. b) I care about the societal acceptability of my thoughts before thinking them c) One's thoughts should be discarded if they can somehow be negatively viewed in job interviews d) I cannot have my own business and therefore not need anyone to give me a job.