[jujugoboom]

This is such a poor faith argument that completely ignores any reality. These companies have had a massive last decade or so, and if what you're saying is really the case, then we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly. Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of Americans, with the lions share of wealth created during the last 2 years of resurgent economic boom going to the top 1% of Americans, not the fixed income middle america boomers who are currently dying because they can't afford to keep living on social security.

[overrun11]

> we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly.

I'd be interested to see evidence but I suspect we did see this? Retirement portfolios and housing prices (where the majority of elderly wealth is) ballooned.

> Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of American

The elderly are the richest Americans so this is consistent with the elderly getting wealthier.

[jujugoboom]

Retirement accounts are largely a benefit enjoyed by those well-enough off to have them [1], as well as owning a home. So while yes, these indicators have increased, it only speaks to how the bulk of wealth created since 2008 has gone to mostly well-off individuals. And while yes, wealth is overall heavily weighted to older generations, it does not change the fact that the only people who are rich are the rich, regardless of age. While most wealthy people are boomers, most boomers are not wealthy. If you look at economic insecurity (200% FPL), the elderly in America are over-represented, with a rate of about 33% compared to ~27% overall[2].

[1] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/08/who-has-retir... [2] https://ncoa.org/article/get-the-facts-on-economic-security-...

[xapata]

Your analysis doesn't match the economic measures I've been reading, which indicate that lower income workers in the US have seen real wage gains and that homeowners have seen net worth increases, and are feeling wealthier. Unemployment is very low, despite the recent layoffs, and many categories of employment are still seeing upwards wage pressure.

Social Security is pinned to inflation, so I don't understand why those living on Social Security payments might be in different circumstances now than 5 years ago.

[jujugoboom]

I have no clue where you're finding that lower income workers are experiencing any real wage gains, let alone at a significant rate. Home ownership as a percentage of population has never recovered anywhere near pre-2008 levels, so on behalf of myself and most people in my generation and cohort, I couldn't care less if homeowners have more money, that fact is having less of a bearing on our real world with each day. And yes, social security is pinned to inflation so their situation hasn't changed much in 5 years, you're right, most elderly people in america are dying poor and increasingly alone in nursing homes seeking to extract profit from them. None of these points have anything to do with my original point, which is that since the 2008 recession, the tech industry has seen a massive influx of money, and to try and argue that the money put into that industry somehow makes it back to middle america because of some made up idea of who shareholders are is a bad faith argument, and ignores any reality of the situation. I have no idea what it is with people like you who just want to die on the hill of nothing being wrong and that we just have to keep doing what we're doing. A better future is possible, and only if we all start believing it is.

[xapata]

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/opinion/inflation-poor-in...

"The labor economist Arindrajit Dube has estimated hourly wage changes — by decile rather than quartile — over a longer period, since the beginning of the pandemic recession. He finds that real wages for the bottom 40 percent of workers have actually increased".

[jujugoboom]

While yes, real wages for the bottom 50% have increased according to FRED data, that trend only appears if you look at data from 2020-2022. If you look a little further back, to about 2008, you'll find that real wages for the bottom 50% has grown at a much slower rate than those in the top 50%[1]. This also all ignores that percentages are deceiving when looking at small windows of data, and only suggests how current situations may compare to previous situations, not the overall situation someone is in. Many of the people in the bottom 50%, and especially as you get into lower deciles, have not been in a good place for a while now, and while real wage growth is great, it does little to truly improve their situations (remember, percentages result in a lower actual value when your starting value is lower). If you really wanted to make this argument, then you could pull up net worth data that shows a 110% increase from 2020-2022 for the bottom 50% compared to only a 27% increase for the top 0.1%, but then someone might show you a graph of the data and ask for you to point to the 110% increase[2]. I don't know what it is with weirdos online trying to cherry-pick data to try and prove poor people aren't poor, but it's really getting old.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/WCrJ40c [2] https://imgur.com/a/t1tQe4n

Edit: also interesting to point out that 2020-2022 has included things like direct-to-citizen stimulus checks, and large government investment in the form of the build back better package. If anything, it is a testament that direct aid to people struggling does more to improve their immediate situation than any other solution proposed by neoliberals and the GOP. If that is your argument, then I will agree with you, and say we should do more, like a UBI and increased taxes on the wealthy to start to undo decades of socioeconomic stratification.

[xapata]

> If that is your argument

I wasn't arguing for a particular point, but I do happen to advocate for basic income policies funded by progressive taxes.

> to about 2008

I must have overlooked that you were talking about a longer time period than the pandemic. Most people recently have been discussing the stimulus policies and correlated (not necessarily caused) inflation. There's been a trend of saying they were counter-productive for lower income households, which is not supported by FRED measurements.

[jujugoboom]

> I wasn't arguing for a particular point

From my original comment, my statement you took issue with was

> Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of Americans, with the lions share of wealth created during the last 2 years of resurgent economic boom going to the top 1% of Americans

which is a very substantiated claim[1]. Your counter argument was that in the same time frame, the bottom 40% have seen real wage gains. My counter to that argument is that while it is true, it still doesn't reflect where most of the money is actually going, and is a disingenuous argument that makes the situations of the lower 50% seem better than it is. I never argued that stimulus policies were bad for lower-income households. Not sure what point you're trying to make to me.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-alm...